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It is frustrating to read Java code. I don't want to understand your abstractions or class definitions like final, static and whatever. I don't want to learn a

by adezxc 3y ago

It is frustrating to read Java code. I don't want to understand your abstractions or class definitions like final, static and whatever. I don't want to learn about Gradle or Maven to understand how a package is working, I'd rather do it in code. Consider even the current "Hello, world" example in Java (Yes, I know about the proposal about simplifying it), it is tedious, why would I need to understand public/private and classes before launching a simple program? I fully agree it is a terrific piece of software, especially for industry-grade applications, yet it just isn't attractive. Main thing IMO, is that you can start out writing pretty good Go code after 24 hours and just improve on your skills as a general programmer. With Java, after a few months you would still need to know about some methods or OOP tips/tricks, design patterns etc. to become proficient.

kaba0 3y ago
There is no going around abstraction, that’s a necessary part of any non-trivial program as that’s the only method we have to control complexity. Your struct is also an abstraction, you could have defined another one, use it differently, etc. Many of the design patterns are useless bullshit, that is long superseded by a language feature, so that point doesn’t stand imo. Go also has public/protected, it is just case-specific. If anything, that makes it harder to understand, how should I knew that Asd is different from asd beforehand?
- konart 3y ago
  >If anything, that makes it harder to understand, how should I knew that Asd is different from asd beforehand? By reading docs or some kind of "Go by Example"? The same way you learned the difference between `private` and `protected`.
- adezxc 3y ago
  It is easier to know that lowercase is package-specific, uppercase is exported, than knowing which field is private/public by default. Go reserved keywords: break, default, func, interface, select, case, defer, go, map, struct, chan, else, goto, package, switch, const, fallthrough, if, range, type, continue, for, import, return, var Java reserved keywords: abstract, continue, for, new, switch, assert, default, goto*, package, synchronized, boolean, do, if, private, this, break, double, implements, protected, throw, byte, else, import, public, throws, case, enum, instanceof, return, transient, catch, extends, int, short, try, char, final, interface, static, void, class, finally, long, strictfp, volatile, const, float, native, super, while.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    You have conveniently left out types from go’s list.. with those removed it is hardly longer, and as has been shown (case-sensitive identifiers), not all language complexity lives within keywords.
    - adezxc 3y ago
      https://go.dev/play/p/71I57QCycTr https://go.dev/play/p/71I57QCycTr This works, so how exactly did I leave them out?
    - preseinger 3y ago
      the parent's point was to compare the set of reserved keywords in the two languages types do not enter the discussion
      - kaba0 3y ago
        They do if 1/3 of java’s keywords are there due to types.
        preseinger 3y ago
        some keywords are types, but not all types are keywords, right? like, it's not as if the go type `float64` is also a go keyword but i guess the java type `byte` is a java keyword? according to https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/nutsandbolts/_keywords.html https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/nutsandbolts/_k...
  - za3faran 3y ago
    This is why you can do const true = false in golang The number of reserved keywords is not a bad thing. For example, I constantly missed `final` when I worked in golang. Just because a keyword doesn't exist does not make its usecase disappear. Same with other features like `enum` (extremely useful) and visibility rules. golang only has package private and public, not nearly as granular as one needs in practice, not to mention generating large CL's when changing the visibility rules of a function, as opposed to simply having a 1 line change. Sure you can ignore those use cases, but it doesn't mean that their usefulness disappears.
sethammons 3y ago
A number of years ago, I decided to try out this Java monster. Figured I'd add it to the tool belt. Opened the first hello world tutorial Google game me. It started with xml files to define string content. I noped out.
- za3faran 3y ago
  It sounds you're conflating an older framework with Java the language.

by adezxc 3y ago

kaba0 3y ago

There is no going around abstraction, that’s a necessary part of any non-trivial program as that’s the only method we have to control complexity. Your struct is also an abstraction, you could have defined another one, use it differently, etc. Many of the design patterns are useless bullshit, that is long superseded by a language feature, so that point doesn’t stand imo. Go also has public/protected, it is just case-specific. If anything, that makes it harder to understand, how should I knew that Asd is different from asd beforehand?

konart 3y ago
>If anything, that makes it harder to understand, how should I knew that Asd is different from asd beforehand? By reading docs or some kind of "Go by Example"? The same way you learned the difference between `private` and `protected`.
adezxc 3y ago
It is easier to know that lowercase is package-specific, uppercase is exported, than knowing which field is private/public by default. Go reserved keywords: break, default, func, interface, select, case, defer, go, map, struct, chan, else, goto, package, switch, const, fallthrough, if, range, type, continue, for, import, return, var Java reserved keywords: abstract, continue, for, new, switch, assert, default, goto*, package, synchronized, boolean, do, if, private, this, break, double, implements, protected, throw, byte, else, import, public, throws, case, enum, instanceof, return, transient, catch, extends, int, short, try, char, final, interface, static, void, class, finally, long, strictfp, volatile, const, float, native, super, while.
- kaba0 3y ago
  You have conveniently left out types from go’s list.. with those removed it is hardly longer, and as has been shown (case-sensitive identifiers), not all language complexity lives within keywords.
  - adezxc 3y ago
    https://go.dev/play/p/71I57QCycTr https://go.dev/play/p/71I57QCycTr This works, so how exactly did I leave them out?
  - preseinger 3y ago
    the parent's point was to compare the set of reserved keywords in the two languages types do not enter the discussion
    - kaba0 3y ago
      They do if 1/3 of java’s keywords are there due to types.
      - preseinger 3y ago
        some keywords are types, but not all types are keywords, right? like, it's not as if the go type `float64` is also a go keyword but i guess the java type `byte` is a java keyword? according to https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/nutsandbolts/_keywords.html https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/nutsandbolts/_k...
- za3faran 3y ago
  This is why you can do const true = false in golang The number of reserved keywords is not a bad thing. For example, I constantly missed `final` when I worked in golang. Just because a keyword doesn't exist does not make its usecase disappear. Same with other features like `enum` (extremely useful) and visibility rules. golang only has package private and public, not nearly as granular as one needs in practice, not to mention generating large CL's when changing the visibility rules of a function, as opposed to simply having a 1 line change. Sure you can ignore those use cases, but it doesn't mean that their usefulness disappears.

sethammons 3y ago

A number of years ago, I decided to try out this Java monster. Figured I'd add it to the tool belt. Opened the first hello world tutorial Google game me. It started with xml files to define string content. I noped out.

za3faran 3y ago
It sounds you're conflating an older framework with Java the language.