6 ms·

I think the personal goals of the average cop involve doing the least amount of work possible, doing whatever they want, supporting their peers in doing whateve

by 93po 3y ago

I think the personal goals of the average cop involve doing the least amount of work possible, doing whatever they want, supporting their peers in doing whatever they want, and getting paid. Doing whatever they want usually involving "putting people in their place" and forcing them to "respect their authority", whether consciously or not. The goals of policing as a profession has roots in protecting capitalism and those who control capital. It hasn't deviated much from that since it started. And I would describe capitalism as malevolent. So to answer your question: yes.

mindslight 3y ago
I agree with most of what you wrote in this comment - I don't agree with your original comment that just seems to be rejecting analysis. If police are protecting capital and those who control capital, then they're not uniformly malevolent - coming across as someone who, in another context, might be telling them what to do is likely to get you further with them. Likewise, if one goal of individual police is to force people to "respect their authority", then you're going to have a better time when you do "respect" that authority, especially when you're at the business end of the stick. Note that I put the quotes there because you don't actually have to respect them in order to make them feel respected. That's essentially what my argument boils down to - acknowledging their motivations, especially the nuances and not just painting with a broad brush, in a way that you personally can work with will be advantageous.
- 93po 3y ago
  I don’t care about having a bad time if it’s the result of a corrupt cop not respecting me exercising my rights. I think it is my moral imperative to use all my rights at all times with cops because it helps normalize it for others who can’t so nonchalantly have a lawyer and afford going to court. If a cop treats me courteously and greets me kindly and is respectful in doing their job, I will also greet them kindly and wish them well at the end, but I still still say “respectfully, I will provide identification/documentation and confirm basic details about my identity but am otherwise exercising my right to remain silent and to speak with an attorney”. I will acquiesce only very slightly in that I will sign the ticket they give me instead of getting arrested for refusal to sign. If he wants to make up a reason to arrest me or potentially even harm me, I will fight it in court.
  - mindslight 3y ago
    > it is my moral imperative to use all my rights at all times with cops This is a poor standard, that I doubt you're actually meeting. For example, when you drive through a construction zone, do you flip off every cop you see in order to maximize your right to free expression? I do actually agree with where you're coming from! It's just that the standard you've claimed leaves much to be desired - it's framed in a closed world zero sum way, which only makes sense if you're only considering the times you have no choice but to interact with cops. Like for example, I have yelled at a cop doing construction duty (poorly) to "do your job" - traffic was backing up because he was looking the other way and chatting, rather than making sure cars kept moving. I have laid on the horn at some undercover car setting up to harass some kids in a strip mall parking lot, because it stopped in the entrance to the lot with me half stuck out into the highway. Ended up drawing aggro and getting an earful about how I was disrupting their investigation about drugs blah blah blah. But at the end of the day they want to attack the people they set out to attack, rather than a side quest of hassling me because I called them out. If a cop passes me on the highway at high speed with no lights (ie not an emergency), often times I will follow them under the rationale of equal protection under the law. I'm sure I'll get jumped on for explicitly listing these things - people wielding "privilege" or another truncheon-of-the-day, thinking they're "progressive" but really just wanting to enforce the crab bucket. But there was principle in all of them - cops are citizens like everybody else, and should be subject to the same laws and responsibilities as everyone else. And it's all citizens' moral imperative to enforce that. So back to the topic - the context is being pulled over for something that you are actually "guilty" of, but aren't necessarily going to get a ticket for (cf 3 Felonies a Day). Of all the times I've been pulled over, I'd say about half resulted in just a warning. So it's not that the cop will make up a reason to ticket you, but rather that they already have that reason but perhaps will show you mercy. Once I'm in their direct sights, to me the optimal way to play is whatever is most likely to make them let me go. If that involves playing the part of someone who enjoys licking boots? So be it! Dissent is better expressed in contexts where you aren't already in their sights.
    - 93po 3y ago
      > but rather that they already have that reason but perhaps will show you mercy And this is what I take issue with. This leads to the systemic racism we see in policing. There is no reason why a cop should change their mind on whether to ticket you for the probable cause event after they leave their vehicle and approach yours. The decision should already be made and stay that way. > which only makes sense if you're only considering the times you have no choice but to interact with cops Yes, I agree, but the other viewpoint I have is that I refuse to interact with cops for any reason other than being forced to. I won't talk to them, I won't call them (unless it's an emergency and someone asks me to on their behalf - and then I don't stick around unless it's crucial), I won't even open my door for them unless they have a warrant. Unless I'm being detained or they have a warrant, I'm ignoring them. If someone burst into my home right now and robbed me, I still would not call the police (although, I live alone, and having kids or a spouse might make me reconsider that since I'm calling on their behalf). I have been held at knife point fixing my car in a parking lot (Seattle) and did not call the cops.

by 93po 3y ago

mindslight 3y ago

I agree with most of what you wrote in this comment - I don't agree with your original comment that just seems to be rejecting analysis. If police are protecting capital and those who control capital, then they're not uniformly malevolent - coming across as someone who, in another context, might be telling them what to do is likely to get you further with them. Likewise, if one goal of individual police is to force people to "respect their authority", then you're going to have a better time when you do "respect" that authority, especially when you're at the business end of the stick. Note that I put the quotes there because you don't actually have to respect them in order to make them feel respected. That's essentially what my argument boils down to - acknowledging their motivations, especially the nuances and not just painting with a broad brush, in a way that you personally can work with will be advantageous.

93po 3y ago
I don’t care about having a bad time if it’s the result of a corrupt cop not respecting me exercising my rights. I think it is my moral imperative to use all my rights at all times with cops because it helps normalize it for others who can’t so nonchalantly have a lawyer and afford going to court. If a cop treats me courteously and greets me kindly and is respectful in doing their job, I will also greet them kindly and wish them well at the end, but I still still say “respectfully, I will provide identification/documentation and confirm basic details about my identity but am otherwise exercising my right to remain silent and to speak with an attorney”. I will acquiesce only very slightly in that I will sign the ticket they give me instead of getting arrested for refusal to sign. If he wants to make up a reason to arrest me or potentially even harm me, I will fight it in court.
- mindslight 3y ago
  > it is my moral imperative to use all my rights at all times with cops This is a poor standard, that I doubt you're actually meeting. For example, when you drive through a construction zone, do you flip off every cop you see in order to maximize your right to free expression? I do actually agree with where you're coming from! It's just that the standard you've claimed leaves much to be desired - it's framed in a closed world zero sum way, which only makes sense if you're only considering the times you have no choice but to interact with cops. Like for example, I have yelled at a cop doing construction duty (poorly) to "do your job" - traffic was backing up because he was looking the other way and chatting, rather than making sure cars kept moving. I have laid on the horn at some undercover car setting up to harass some kids in a strip mall parking lot, because it stopped in the entrance to the lot with me half stuck out into the highway. Ended up drawing aggro and getting an earful about how I was disrupting their investigation about drugs blah blah blah. But at the end of the day they want to attack the people they set out to attack, rather than a side quest of hassling me because I called them out. If a cop passes me on the highway at high speed with no lights (ie not an emergency), often times I will follow them under the rationale of equal protection under the law. I'm sure I'll get jumped on for explicitly listing these things - people wielding "privilege" or another truncheon-of-the-day, thinking they're "progressive" but really just wanting to enforce the crab bucket. But there was principle in all of them - cops are citizens like everybody else, and should be subject to the same laws and responsibilities as everyone else. And it's all citizens' moral imperative to enforce that. So back to the topic - the context is being pulled over for something that you are actually "guilty" of, but aren't necessarily going to get a ticket for (cf 3 Felonies a Day). Of all the times I've been pulled over, I'd say about half resulted in just a warning. So it's not that the cop will make up a reason to ticket you, but rather that they already have that reason but perhaps will show you mercy. Once I'm in their direct sights, to me the optimal way to play is whatever is most likely to make them let me go. If that involves playing the part of someone who enjoys licking boots? So be it! Dissent is better expressed in contexts where you aren't already in their sights.
  - 93po 3y ago
    > but rather that they already have that reason but perhaps will show you mercy And this is what I take issue with. This leads to the systemic racism we see in policing. There is no reason why a cop should change their mind on whether to ticket you for the probable cause event after they leave their vehicle and approach yours. The decision should already be made and stay that way. > which only makes sense if you're only considering the times you have no choice but to interact with cops Yes, I agree, but the other viewpoint I have is that I refuse to interact with cops for any reason other than being forced to. I won't talk to them, I won't call them (unless it's an emergency and someone asks me to on their behalf - and then I don't stick around unless it's crucial), I won't even open my door for them unless they have a warrant. Unless I'm being detained or they have a warrant, I'm ignoring them. If someone burst into my home right now and robbed me, I still would not call the police (although, I live alone, and having kids or a spouse might make me reconsider that since I'm calling on their behalf). I have been held at knife point fixing my car in a parking lot (Seattle) and did not call the cops.