4 ms·

While I agree you should always have said signed contract there's usually only a technical difference as most job offers mention that you have a probationary pe

While I agree you should always have said signed contract there's usually only a technical difference as most job offers mention that you have a probationary period during which either side can get out at any given time without consequences.

JohnFen 3y ago
What the job offer says doesn't matter. Once you have the offer, the negotiations begin. If you are incurring a large expense or risk to take the job, you should negotiate a clause in your contract that mitigates that risk. It's not a rare or unusual thing to do at all. A reasonable employer will understand the need for this and accommodate it. If they cannot or will not accommodate it, then it's an offer you should pass on -- the risk is just too great. At least for me, anyway. Everyone's risk tolerance is different. But if you don't do this, you are willingly accepting a huge level of risk. People willing to gamble like that have to be prepared to take losses.
- alemanek 3y ago
  I am guessing you don’t work in the US. Formal work contracts that provide any real protections to the employee are essentially non-existent in the US. Best you are going to get is a relocation bonus which won’t need to be paid back in this situation.
  - slaw 3y ago
    In the US, formal work contract provide all protections written in it. You just most of the time don't negotiate any.
    - javagram 3y ago
      Given that such a contract is extremely unusual (except for executives), attempting to negotiate it would usually be a nonstarter. The big corporation will just move on as trying to get their legal and accounting bureaucracy to approve such a contract would be too difficult for the hiring manager/recruiter even if they really want the candidate.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        > Given that such a contract is extremely unusual Everyone keeps saying this and it's blowing my mind a little. I've only ever worked in the US -- but the only times I've worked (over a 4 decade career) without an employment contract was when I was working "unskilled" jobs: fast food, janitor, etc.
        tharkun__ 3y ago
        I don't think your parent was trying to say that contracts existing are unusual. Just that being able to negotiate a contract that has such provisions and contingencies as you said you'd want to negotiate for are extremely unusual outside of executive positions. The truth probably lies somewhere in between but I do agree that it's not a common thing for your garden variety software developer to be able to negotiate such a thing with a corporation like Oracle. If you're the expert in relational algebra optimization, sure. If you're just another developer. Meh, I don't see it.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I do work in the US. The experience I've had over my entire career is radically different than yours, it seems. > Formal work contracts that provide any real protections to the employee are essentially non-existent in the US. True, if you just sign what you're given. Not true if you actually negotiate. I don't think I've ever signed an employment contract without having some changes made to it first.
- tharkun__ 3y ago
  I would agree with your assessment and I have passed on opportunities before that were not good enough to take the risk without having the contract changed. However I have also made the experience that I'm not unique enough and the huge corporation not desperate enough to hire specifically me that they would engage their lawyers to change the contract. I've also had smaller employers absolutely change contract wording without so much as a question and we were all happy. In this new world of electronic contract signing our hands are also a bit more tied. Instead of being able to just strike through parts of the contract and maybe pencil in something new and they maybe just say "fiiiine" and sign it too, it's now an upfront battle. One that in most garden variety software developer position "negotiations" the corporation has the upper hand in I would say.

JohnFen 3y ago

What the job offer says doesn't matter. Once you have the offer, the negotiations begin. If you are incurring a large expense or risk to take the job, you should negotiate a clause in your contract that mitigates that risk. It's not a rare or unusual thing to do at all. A reasonable employer will understand the need for this and accommodate it. If they cannot or will not accommodate it, then it's an offer you should pass on -- the risk is just too great. At least for me, anyway. Everyone's risk tolerance is different. But if you don't do this, you are willingly accepting a huge level of risk. People willing to gamble like that have to be prepared to take losses.

alemanek 3y ago
I am guessing you don’t work in the US. Formal work contracts that provide any real protections to the employee are essentially non-existent in the US. Best you are going to get is a relocation bonus which won’t need to be paid back in this situation.
- slaw 3y ago
  In the US, formal work contract provide all protections written in it. You just most of the time don't negotiate any.
  - javagram 3y ago
    Given that such a contract is extremely unusual (except for executives), attempting to negotiate it would usually be a nonstarter. The big corporation will just move on as trying to get their legal and accounting bureaucracy to approve such a contract would be too difficult for the hiring manager/recruiter even if they really want the candidate.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > Given that such a contract is extremely unusual Everyone keeps saying this and it's blowing my mind a little. I've only ever worked in the US -- but the only times I've worked (over a 4 decade career) without an employment contract was when I was working "unskilled" jobs: fast food, janitor, etc.
      - tharkun__ 3y ago
        I don't think your parent was trying to say that contracts existing are unusual. Just that being able to negotiate a contract that has such provisions and contingencies as you said you'd want to negotiate for are extremely unusual outside of executive positions. The truth probably lies somewhere in between but I do agree that it's not a common thing for your garden variety software developer to be able to negotiate such a thing with a corporation like Oracle. If you're the expert in relational algebra optimization, sure. If you're just another developer. Meh, I don't see it.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I do work in the US. The experience I've had over my entire career is radically different than yours, it seems. > Formal work contracts that provide any real protections to the employee are essentially non-existent in the US. True, if you just sign what you're given. Not true if you actually negotiate. I don't think I've ever signed an employment contract without having some changes made to it first.
tharkun__ 3y ago
I would agree with your assessment and I have passed on opportunities before that were not good enough to take the risk without having the contract changed. However I have also made the experience that I'm not unique enough and the huge corporation not desperate enough to hire specifically me that they would engage their lawyers to change the contract. I've also had smaller employers absolutely change contract wording without so much as a question and we were all happy. In this new world of electronic contract signing our hands are also a bit more tied. Instead of being able to just strike through parts of the contract and maybe pencil in something new and they maybe just say "fiiiine" and sign it too, it's now an upfront battle. One that in most garden variety software developer position "negotiations" the corporation has the upper hand in I would say.