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No, I defend it because I actually do not want that. I prefer the Apple experience. I control all my subscriptions from a single place, I only get stuff from th

No, I defend it because I actually do not want that. I prefer the Apple experience. I control all my subscriptions from a single place, I only get stuff from the App Store and if I get tricked to buy an app that is not working I can request a refund and I’ve never had issues getting my money back. I also haven’t had a single issue with anyone from my family getting scammed or their details being stolen after switching the to Apple. Before it was a constant “accidental” subscriptions and random installed apps. What actually annoys me are the developers wanting everything for “free”. Look you customer chose to buy an iPhone. Accept it. You don’t like that you have to Apple? Tell your customer to use a web browser. But I feel there is almost no respect from developers to what the users have chosen and why.

thefounder 3y ago
>> You don’t like that you have to Apple? Tell your customer to use a web browser. It's not working like that with companies with values of trillions that own half of the market.
ur-whale 3y ago
>I prefer the Apple experience. Yup, different people place the freedom vs security cursor at different spots. You're clearly a "I'd rather live in a golden cage than use my brain" type, and that is fine, more power to you. No everyone is like you, thank god.
- martimarkov 3y ago
  No, I value my time and my brain. It takes me X wasted minutes to talk to a support person to remove my subscription. That’s not really a good use of my brain, is it now? If you want the freedom - there are platforms out there. Use those. There is no reason to impose your views on the rest of us. I prefer this level of security vs freedom. When I need the freedom I pickup my Android phone. The important point here is I have a choice. Ppl get scammed by phone calls & text messages… it’s an entire industry designed and operating to bypass this brain of yours. And now we are introducing another vector to make it easier. That is my problem with side-loading. The fact that it increases the attack surface for everyone even though not everyone wants it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  > You're clearly a "I'd rather live in a golden cage than use my brain" type You're posting this on Hacker News, literally 9 people out of 10 here use their brains for a living. I hope you're keeping that in mind.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    Yeah, he's posting this on Hacker News. A site whose very name is pretty much the antithesis of what these corporations are doing.
ixwt 3y ago
To be clear: nobody else should have the option to not have to use the walled garden on devices they purchased because... you prefer the walled garden? If there is side loading forced to be allowed on Apple devices, there is nobody making you leave the walled garden.
- martimarkov 3y ago
  No, there are already devices which are not wall gardened. Use those. My argument is that I have bought a specific device (and everyone else also did) instead of the other device being open. So I have already made a choice. Now you (or someone else) comes in and says: Well all of you obviously want this freedom that you chose not to have in the first place… Yeah I explicitly chose that and I know many people who made that choice. Because they want the piece of mind vs the sideloading. Again are there phones that allow it? Yes, and people have decided not to buy those. My point is - respect that choice and don’t tell ppl (general public) that they want something because it’s more profitable to the developers. I do expect a future conversation to go like this: Scammer: Madam, go into your settings and enable side loading. It will then connect to your bank account and I will… Now click on the link I sent you to connect so I can help you Malware installed…
  - ixwt 3y ago
    What harm is there to you if sideloading is enabled?
    - martimarkov 3y ago
      Literally the new attack vector I described above. It’s one more thing to worry about.
      - ixwt 3y ago
        I think your proposed attack vector would look more like this: Scammer: Madam, go into your settings and enable side loading. It will then connect to your bank account and I will… Madam: Okay uuuuh... A big popup came up... It says... That I should not enable this setting unless I really know what I'm doing... And if someone is telling me to enable it then I should hang up the phone!!
jeroenhd 3y ago
> I prefer the Apple experience So don't download apps from elsewhere? If an app decides to move away from the App Store there will be competitors jumping in to replace it within days.
agloe_dreams 3y ago
This is actually wild to me because I think it is based on a big assumption. I'm not actually sure most customers actually "chose" the iPhone. For many, it's a social construct. Apple creates iMessage, if you want to be able to talk to your friends and be in the group chat or get Facetime calls, you need an iPhone. The Social fallout is large. I wouldn't fully disagree with you if..we were talking about buying a random brand Android phone because you could just buy a different one..but Apple's unwillingness to openness really removes elements of choice. Then there's this other angle that I think it is weird that you think it needs to be black or white. The default App store will still be the default. You can just use it out of the box as you do. Any solution that allows third party stores would be a setting that would need activation and would probably say, repeatedly "Don't do this if someone told you to". Then finally, the angle that developers want things for free is wiiiild. Apple actively locks features out of PWAs on purpose, the native feature support is awful. Apple stating that any digital transaction on a phone means they get 30% is a wild world. Imagine a world where Ford cars demand 30% of all tolls or 30% of all drive-thru transactions as it is 'in-car' purchases. Computers never worked like this and it harms users. If apple wants a cut, they should have to defend it with a better product rather than locking people out.
- martimarkov 3y ago
  Look I completely agree on the charges. There is no rationale for them. But fix that. The only viable defense is Apple creates an ecosystem and builds the APIs and OS. They need to get paid for the work - otherwise the argument for developers wanting stuff for free is still valid. Enforce features being available (NFC for example on the iPhone). PWA is a complete joke - I agree. Enforce feature-parity. But IMO the argument always boils down to the fact the fees are too high. That is the main driver. And like nobody talks about the fact they are the same as Xbox, PS, Nintendo, Steam because we have more mobile developers who want to make more money. I mean the vast majority of apps should most likely not exist - they are just bloatware (again IMO). What I think would make sense we do a blanket statement for all stores and devices. Either all or nothing otherwise this is not really a problem on ethics or morality but on just pure profits.
  - 3y ago
realusername 3y ago
> Accept it. You don’t like that you have to Apple? Tell your customer to use a web browser That's exactly like I've done, I do tell people that iphones are legacy devices and to buy something else in the future if they want a better experience, I won't port anything on it and discontinued everything I had the appstore. I'm not sure that answer would make you happy either though.
- martimarkov 3y ago
  It actually does!! I’m very happy to use web apps. As for legacy - pretty sure the markets, users and developers will disagree with you Plus my experience on Android has been terrible. BUT some ppl like it. I don’t go and shit on them and tell them it’s terrible. I write my apps to support Android as much as possible. If there are issues I’d prioritise iOS but that’s because it’s my platform of choice. The same way you have the right. AND that is fine
  - realusername 3y ago
    > As for legacy - pretty sure the markets, users and developers will disagree with you That's fine then, everyone has their point of view. I've used their platform to deploy the app before I discontinued it to make it Android-only so I do have a real experience on how bad the dev platform is, I'm not just judging randomly. I also used the phone itself for a year and it was hands down the worst mobile experience I ever had but this is more subjective, unlike the dev experience which I do think is objectively terrible.
Youden 3y ago
It's not just developers who want this; I'm a user who owns and iPhone and I would like to be able to sideload or use other stores/payment systems. I don't want to use a web browser for anything I'd use an app for. The web is and always will be an inferior experience compared to a well-made native app. I don't want to use Android. Google's Android is so full of privacy holes that nobody really knows how to turn most of the data collection off. Open-source Android is incompatible with standard apps like my local public transit app due to over-reliance on Play Services. I do like the things you mentioned about Apple but just as I'll use raw credit cards or bank transfers with merchants I trust and PayPal for those I don't, I'd like to do the same with purchases on iOS. Sometimes I'd be happy to pay a premium to know I won't have to go through an arduous process to cancel a subscription, sometimes I wouldn't. I want the choice.
- bloody-crow 3y ago
  > I'm a user who owns and iPhone and I would like to be able to sideload or use other stores/payment systems. > I don't want to use Android. Google's Android is so full of privacy holes that nobody really knows how to turn most of the data collection off. It's pretty amusing that you don't see or pretend to not see the connection between the two.
  - ixwt 3y ago
    I don't think tracking by the OS itself has anything to do with side-loading.

thefounder 3y ago

>> You don’t like that you have to Apple? Tell your customer to use a web browser. It's not working like that with companies with values of trillions that own half of the market.

ur-whale 3y ago

>I prefer the Apple experience. Yup, different people place the freedom vs security cursor at different spots. You're clearly a "I'd rather live in a golden cage than use my brain" type, and that is fine, more power to you. No everyone is like you, thank god.

martimarkov 3y ago
No, I value my time and my brain. It takes me X wasted minutes to talk to a support person to remove my subscription. That’s not really a good use of my brain, is it now? If you want the freedom - there are platforms out there. Use those. There is no reason to impose your views on the rest of us. I prefer this level of security vs freedom. When I need the freedom I pickup my Android phone. The important point here is I have a choice. Ppl get scammed by phone calls & text messages… it’s an entire industry designed and operating to bypass this brain of yours. And now we are introducing another vector to make it easier. That is my problem with side-loading. The fact that it increases the attack surface for everyone even though not everyone wants it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Toutouxc 3y ago
> You're clearly a "I'd rather live in a golden cage than use my brain" type You're posting this on Hacker News, literally 9 people out of 10 here use their brains for a living. I hope you're keeping that in mind.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  Yeah, he's posting this on Hacker News. A site whose very name is pretty much the antithesis of what these corporations are doing.

ixwt 3y ago

To be clear: nobody else should have the option to not have to use the walled garden on devices they purchased because... you prefer the walled garden? If there is side loading forced to be allowed on Apple devices, there is nobody making you leave the walled garden.

martimarkov 3y ago
No, there are already devices which are not wall gardened. Use those. My argument is that I have bought a specific device (and everyone else also did) instead of the other device being open. So I have already made a choice. Now you (or someone else) comes in and says: Well all of you obviously want this freedom that you chose not to have in the first place… Yeah I explicitly chose that and I know many people who made that choice. Because they want the piece of mind vs the sideloading. Again are there phones that allow it? Yes, and people have decided not to buy those. My point is - respect that choice and don’t tell ppl (general public) that they want something because it’s more profitable to the developers. I do expect a future conversation to go like this: Scammer: Madam, go into your settings and enable side loading. It will then connect to your bank account and I will… Now click on the link I sent you to connect so I can help you Malware installed…
- ixwt 3y ago
  What harm is there to you if sideloading is enabled?
  - martimarkov 3y ago
    Literally the new attack vector I described above. It’s one more thing to worry about.
    - ixwt 3y ago
      I think your proposed attack vector would look more like this: Scammer: Madam, go into your settings and enable side loading. It will then connect to your bank account and I will… Madam: Okay uuuuh... A big popup came up... It says... That I should not enable this setting unless I really know what I'm doing... And if someone is telling me to enable it then I should hang up the phone!!

jeroenhd 3y ago

> I prefer the Apple experience So don't download apps from elsewhere? If an app decides to move away from the App Store there will be competitors jumping in to replace it within days.

agloe_dreams 3y ago

This is actually wild to me because I think it is based on a big assumption. I'm not actually sure most customers actually "chose" the iPhone. For many, it's a social construct. Apple creates iMessage, if you want to be able to talk to your friends and be in the group chat or get Facetime calls, you need an iPhone. The Social fallout is large. I wouldn't fully disagree with you if..we were talking about buying a random brand Android phone because you could just buy a different one..but Apple's unwillingness to openness really removes elements of choice. Then there's this other angle that I think it is weird that you think it needs to be black or white. The default App store will still be the default. You can just use it out of the box as you do. Any solution that allows third party stores would be a setting that would need activation and would probably say, repeatedly "Don't do this if someone told you to". Then finally, the angle that developers want things for free is wiiiild. Apple actively locks features out of PWAs on purpose, the native feature support is awful. Apple stating that any digital transaction on a phone means they get 30% is a wild world. Imagine a world where Ford cars demand 30% of all tolls or 30% of all drive-thru transactions as it is 'in-car' purchases. Computers never worked like this and it harms users. If apple wants a cut, they should have to defend it with a better product rather than locking people out.

martimarkov 3y ago
Look I completely agree on the charges. There is no rationale for them. But fix that. The only viable defense is Apple creates an ecosystem and builds the APIs and OS. They need to get paid for the work - otherwise the argument for developers wanting stuff for free is still valid. Enforce features being available (NFC for example on the iPhone). PWA is a complete joke - I agree. Enforce feature-parity. But IMO the argument always boils down to the fact the fees are too high. That is the main driver. And like nobody talks about the fact they are the same as Xbox, PS, Nintendo, Steam because we have more mobile developers who want to make more money. I mean the vast majority of apps should most likely not exist - they are just bloatware (again IMO). What I think would make sense we do a blanket statement for all stores and devices. Either all or nothing otherwise this is not really a problem on ethics or morality but on just pure profits.
- 3y ago

realusername 3y ago

> Accept it. You don’t like that you have to Apple? Tell your customer to use a web browser That's exactly like I've done, I do tell people that iphones are legacy devices and to buy something else in the future if they want a better experience, I won't port anything on it and discontinued everything I had the appstore. I'm not sure that answer would make you happy either though.

martimarkov 3y ago
It actually does!! I’m very happy to use web apps. As for legacy - pretty sure the markets, users and developers will disagree with you Plus my experience on Android has been terrible. BUT some ppl like it. I don’t go and shit on them and tell them it’s terrible. I write my apps to support Android as much as possible. If there are issues I’d prioritise iOS but that’s because it’s my platform of choice. The same way you have the right. AND that is fine
- realusername 3y ago
  > As for legacy - pretty sure the markets, users and developers will disagree with you That's fine then, everyone has their point of view. I've used their platform to deploy the app before I discontinued it to make it Android-only so I do have a real experience on how bad the dev platform is, I'm not just judging randomly. I also used the phone itself for a year and it was hands down the worst mobile experience I ever had but this is more subjective, unlike the dev experience which I do think is objectively terrible.

Youden 3y ago

It's not just developers who want this; I'm a user who owns and iPhone and I would like to be able to sideload or use other stores/payment systems. I don't want to use a web browser for anything I'd use an app for. The web is and always will be an inferior experience compared to a well-made native app. I don't want to use Android. Google's Android is so full of privacy holes that nobody really knows how to turn most of the data collection off. Open-source Android is incompatible with standard apps like my local public transit app due to over-reliance on Play Services. I do like the things you mentioned about Apple but just as I'll use raw credit cards or bank transfers with merchants I trust and PayPal for those I don't, I'd like to do the same with purchases on iOS. Sometimes I'd be happy to pay a premium to know I won't have to go through an arduous process to cancel a subscription, sometimes I wouldn't. I want the choice.

bloody-crow 3y ago
> I'm a user who owns and iPhone and I would like to be able to sideload or use other stores/payment systems. > I don't want to use Android. Google's Android is so full of privacy holes that nobody really knows how to turn most of the data collection off. It's pretty amusing that you don't see or pretend to not see the connection between the two.
- ixwt 3y ago
  I don't think tracking by the OS itself has anything to do with side-loading.