10 ms·

All basic human necessities should be not for profit. We all lose when corporate greed meets basic necessities.

ars 3y ago
You're going to have a very very very hard time defining "basic necessity". Electricity isn't a necessity, neither is internet access. Or maybe it is? Does that mean a phone is a basic necessity? Is an x-ray machine a basic necessity?
- sensanaty 3y ago
  In what universe is electricity in the year 2023 not a necessity? It's been a necessity for going on a century now
- Y_Y 3y ago
  I'm sure you're being rhetorical, but to some extent the answer is yes. At least where I live, light and heat are basic rights and those are often most easily and cheaply provided by electrical means. X-ray machines, considered as part of adequate medical care, are similarly guaranteed. I don't know that the internet is considered a "basic" necessity anywhere, but again we're entitled to education and to engage with the society in which we live, and the internet is a common and effective means for doing those. That said, I'm not aware of state-provided internet outside of libraries and schools.
  - forgetfreeman 3y ago
    The UN has strongly implied that internet access should be considered a basic human right, but haven't quite crossed the line to actually stating it plainly.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Given that in plenty of locations in the developed world you can now no longer function as a normal member of society without internet access because everything has gone online it makes good sense that it should be. Paper is pretty much done for, invoices are all pdfs, banking and interaction with the government on all levels is all online.
  - ars 3y ago
    That's the purpose of my rhetoric. If we go by your definition, there's nothing left. Every single one of those things requires parts and if you're going to require all of that to be nonprofit, there's no commercial activity left.
    - Y_Y 3y ago
      I don't necessarily agree. If I have a "right" to transport that doesn't mean the government has to give me a car, maybe they provide a train and if I want a car I have to buy it commercially. Even of the things listed above, their being a basic right doesn't preclude someone buying them. I pay for electricity like almost everyone else.here, but it won't be taken away from me even if I do not pay (though it's not worth the hassle unless I have really cannot afford to pay).
      - ars 3y ago
        I don't agree either, but that is the content of the message I was replying to, and it's the basis of this part of the discussion.
- blindhippo 3y ago
  I'd argue it's not as hard as you seem to insinuate. If a person wants to be able to live in their own accommodation there are some very key things they require. One of the most basic is a bank account (how do you pay rent without that?). Work backwards from just that one basic concept and you'll quickly see how easy it is to figure out what "basic necessities" are. Granted, these will vary between economic regions, but it's quite simple to do so.
- mynameisash 3y ago
  I'm not sure if there's a legal definition, but what I found[0] says that > Essential services are the services and functions that are absolutely necessary, even during a pandemic. They maintain the health and welfare of the municipality. Without these services, sickness, poverty, violence, and chaos would likely result. The listed examples of essential services include things not absolutely, positively necessary to protect life and limb: * Maintenance of communication infrastructure (e.g., telephone system, radio, internet) * Maintenance of utilities (e.g., gas and electricity) * Transportation * Road maintenance/repair * Banking * Payroll departments * Tax collection [0] https://www.paho.org/disasters/dmdocuments/RespToolKit_24_Tool%2016_MaintenanceofEssentialServices.pdf https://www.paho.org/disasters/dmdocuments/RespToolKit_24_To...
josephcsible 3y ago
Since food is a basic human necessity, should farms and grocery stores all have to be nonprofit?
- danaris 3y ago
  Yes? Why not? You seem to think that those proposing this don't recognize we're pushing for a massive shift in how things work, that will disrupt many areas significantly. We recognize that just fine. There are ways to mitigate the harm from that disruption. It's absolutely clear to us that even if we don't mitigate that harm, the system afterward will be much more just and much more kind and humane than the system we have now.
  - therealdrag0 3y ago
    It’s hard for many to consider alternatives under the long shadow of the Cold War where the US food and grocery system was the envy of the world and was basically fantasy land compared to the Soviet counterparts. So why not mitigate current harms instead of overthrow a system with a speculative alternative with speculative mitigations? Otoh: maybe just saying “everything remains the same except the large orgs are non-profit” could be an interesting mitigation to current system.
  - memefrog 3y ago
    Nobody has ever explained how this "mitigation" is supposed to happen. Instead there are just flippant "Yes? Why not?" comments like yours and your siblings, as if "why not" hasn't been demonstrated and explained countless times before. Feel free to show any example of a non-market-based society that had plentiful food. You cannot. Non-market-based societies always fail to provide what people want. The only societies in history where the problem has been too many calories instead of not enough calories are modern commercial societies.
    - danaris 3y ago
      Of course you can't. Post-scarcity is a new thing; you can't go to societies of the past and see its effects. But you act as though adding any features to our society and economy that move toward taking better care of all our people would somehow ruin the whole thing. Now, to answer your initial question: Provide governmental support for small businesses during the transition—local grocery stores, small family farms; not the ones already making hundreds of millions+ in profit every year. A lot of this support wouldn't even need to be monetary—remember, this isn't even talking about making food free or anything; it's just talking about moving to a non-profit model. The most obvious type of assistance is legal (to understand what being a non-profit means and how to legally go about making those changes) and accounting (to understand what this will mean for their books). I don't believe that massive chain supermarkets and agribusiness conglomerates should get much in the way of financial support for this kind of change—they've already been making huge amounts of money for their execs and shareholders. And, again, only one of those groups actually has to stop making money off this. While I would 100% support separate measures to reduce the exec pay disparity, that's out of scope for this particular discussion. Going non-profit just means you don't have shareholders who get to make money off the business—and, vitally, you don't have shareholders pushing the business to make more profit at the expense of pricing people out of staples or reducing the quality of the food.

ars 3y ago

You're going to have a very very very hard time defining "basic necessity". Electricity isn't a necessity, neither is internet access. Or maybe it is? Does that mean a phone is a basic necessity? Is an x-ray machine a basic necessity?

sensanaty 3y ago
In what universe is electricity in the year 2023 not a necessity? It's been a necessity for going on a century now
Y_Y 3y ago
I'm sure you're being rhetorical, but to some extent the answer is yes. At least where I live, light and heat are basic rights and those are often most easily and cheaply provided by electrical means. X-ray machines, considered as part of adequate medical care, are similarly guaranteed. I don't know that the internet is considered a "basic" necessity anywhere, but again we're entitled to education and to engage with the society in which we live, and the internet is a common and effective means for doing those. That said, I'm not aware of state-provided internet outside of libraries and schools.
- forgetfreeman 3y ago
  The UN has strongly implied that internet access should be considered a basic human right, but haven't quite crossed the line to actually stating it plainly.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Given that in plenty of locations in the developed world you can now no longer function as a normal member of society without internet access because everything has gone online it makes good sense that it should be. Paper is pretty much done for, invoices are all pdfs, banking and interaction with the government on all levels is all online.
- ars 3y ago
  That's the purpose of my rhetoric. If we go by your definition, there's nothing left. Every single one of those things requires parts and if you're going to require all of that to be nonprofit, there's no commercial activity left.
  - Y_Y 3y ago
    I don't necessarily agree. If I have a "right" to transport that doesn't mean the government has to give me a car, maybe they provide a train and if I want a car I have to buy it commercially. Even of the things listed above, their being a basic right doesn't preclude someone buying them. I pay for electricity like almost everyone else.here, but it won't be taken away from me even if I do not pay (though it's not worth the hassle unless I have really cannot afford to pay).
    - ars 3y ago
      I don't agree either, but that is the content of the message I was replying to, and it's the basis of this part of the discussion.
blindhippo 3y ago
I'd argue it's not as hard as you seem to insinuate. If a person wants to be able to live in their own accommodation there are some very key things they require. One of the most basic is a bank account (how do you pay rent without that?). Work backwards from just that one basic concept and you'll quickly see how easy it is to figure out what "basic necessities" are. Granted, these will vary between economic regions, but it's quite simple to do so.
mynameisash 3y ago
I'm not sure if there's a legal definition, but what I found[0] says that > Essential services are the services and functions that are absolutely necessary, even during a pandemic. They maintain the health and welfare of the municipality. Without these services, sickness, poverty, violence, and chaos would likely result. The listed examples of essential services include things not absolutely, positively necessary to protect life and limb: * Maintenance of communication infrastructure (e.g., telephone system, radio, internet) * Maintenance of utilities (e.g., gas and electricity) * Transportation * Road maintenance/repair * Banking * Payroll departments * Tax collection [0] https://www.paho.org/disasters/dmdocuments/RespToolKit_24_Tool%2016_MaintenanceofEssentialServices.pdf https://www.paho.org/disasters/dmdocuments/RespToolKit_24_To...

josephcsible 3y ago

Since food is a basic human necessity, should farms and grocery stores all have to be nonprofit?

danaris 3y ago
Yes? Why not? You seem to think that those proposing this don't recognize we're pushing for a massive shift in how things work, that will disrupt many areas significantly. We recognize that just fine. There are ways to mitigate the harm from that disruption. It's absolutely clear to us that even if we don't mitigate that harm, the system afterward will be much more just and much more kind and humane than the system we have now.
- therealdrag0 3y ago
  It’s hard for many to consider alternatives under the long shadow of the Cold War where the US food and grocery system was the envy of the world and was basically fantasy land compared to the Soviet counterparts. So why not mitigate current harms instead of overthrow a system with a speculative alternative with speculative mitigations? Otoh: maybe just saying “everything remains the same except the large orgs are non-profit” could be an interesting mitigation to current system.
- memefrog 3y ago
  Nobody has ever explained how this "mitigation" is supposed to happen. Instead there are just flippant "Yes? Why not?" comments like yours and your siblings, as if "why not" hasn't been demonstrated and explained countless times before. Feel free to show any example of a non-market-based society that had plentiful food. You cannot. Non-market-based societies always fail to provide what people want. The only societies in history where the problem has been too many calories instead of not enough calories are modern commercial societies.
  - danaris 3y ago
    Of course you can't. Post-scarcity is a new thing; you can't go to societies of the past and see its effects. But you act as though adding any features to our society and economy that move toward taking better care of all our people would somehow ruin the whole thing. Now, to answer your initial question: Provide governmental support for small businesses during the transition—local grocery stores, small family farms; not the ones already making hundreds of millions+ in profit every year. A lot of this support wouldn't even need to be monetary—remember, this isn't even talking about making food free or anything; it's just talking about moving to a non-profit model. The most obvious type of assistance is legal (to understand what being a non-profit means and how to legally go about making those changes) and accounting (to understand what this will mean for their books). I don't believe that massive chain supermarkets and agribusiness conglomerates should get much in the way of financial support for this kind of change—they've already been making huge amounts of money for their execs and shareholders. And, again, only one of those groups actually has to stop making money off this. While I would 100% support separate measures to reduce the exec pay disparity, that's out of scope for this particular discussion. Going non-profit just means you don't have shareholders who get to make money off the business—and, vitally, you don't have shareholders pushing the business to make more profit at the expense of pricing people out of staples or reducing the quality of the food.