5 ms·

I am not one for lots of government regulations, but I think that the company in question having some sort of contractual obligation to the person whose job off

I am not one for lots of government regulations, but I think that the company in question having some sort of contractual obligation to the person whose job offer they rescinded would be appropriate. The idea that someone can quit their (probably high paying) job, maybe buy a home in a completely new area of the country for a job and then the company can just say, "Just Kidding" and have no financial responsibility (except bad vibes) seems inappropriate...

JohnFen 3y ago
I hear what you're saying and don't rally disagree much. At the same time, why are people uprooting their lives before they have a signed employment contract?? That seems a bit crazy.
- tharkun__ 3y ago
  While I agree you should always have said signed contract there's usually only a technical difference as most job offers mention that you have a probationary period during which either side can get out at any given time without consequences.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    What the job offer says doesn't matter. Once you have the offer, the negotiations begin. If you are incurring a large expense or risk to take the job, you should negotiate a clause in your contract that mitigates that risk. It's not a rare or unusual thing to do at all. A reasonable employer will understand the need for this and accommodate it. If they cannot or will not accommodate it, then it's an offer you should pass on -- the risk is just too great. At least for me, anyway. Everyone's risk tolerance is different. But if you don't do this, you are willingly accepting a huge level of risk. People willing to gamble like that have to be prepared to take losses.
    - alemanek 3y ago
      I am guessing you don’t work in the US. Formal work contracts that provide any real protections to the employee are essentially non-existent in the US. Best you are going to get is a relocation bonus which won’t need to be paid back in this situation.
      - slaw 3y ago
        In the US, formal work contract provide all protections written in it. You just most of the time don't negotiate any.
        javagram 3y ago
        Given that such a contract is extremely unusual (except for executives), attempting to negotiate it would usually be a nonstarter. The big corporation will just move on as trying to get their legal and accounting bureaucracy to approve such a contract would be too difficult for the hiring manager/recruiter even if they really want the candidate.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        > Given that such a contract is extremely unusual Everyone keeps saying this and it's blowing my mind a little. I've only ever worked in the US -- but the only times I've worked (over a 4 decade career) without an employment contract was when I was working "unskilled" jobs: fast food, janitor, etc.
        tharkun__ 3y ago
        I don't think your parent was trying to say that contracts existing are unusual. Just that being able to negotiate a contract that has such provisions and contingencies as you said you'd want to negotiate for are extremely unusual outside of executive positions. The truth probably lies somewhere in between but I do agree that it's not a common thing for your garden variety software developer to be able to negotiate such a thing with a corporation like Oracle. If you're the expert in relational algebra optimization, sure. If you're just another developer. Meh, I don't see it.
- solardev 3y ago
  What is an employment contract? Is that a British thing? I've never once had a contract for any of the companies I've ever worked for, in any industry, in any state in the USA. Maybe a letter of employment start or something, but contract? No way. They were always free to let me go whenever they wanted to (they never wanted to, thankfully).
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Is that a British thing? I have no idea. I've only ever worked in the US.
    - solardev 3y ago
      Huh. Ok, so... what is it? Like a legally binding agreement your employers would typically give you? I've never seen (or even heard) of such a thing. What's in it? Like does it guarantee you a job for a certain amount of time, or how does it work? If the renege on it, can you sue them...? And if it's relevant... can I ask what field/vertical you work in?
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        > Like a legally binding agreement your employers would typically give you? Yes. It's a contract specifying what both the employer and you are agreeing to. > Like does it guarantee you a job for a certain amount of time, or how does it work? It can, if that's what you and the employer agree should be in it. It's just a contract like any other. They usually include when your employment will start, what your compensation is, what your duties are, and so forth. They often also contain noncompete/nondisclosure agreements, agreements on copyright assignments, what happens when your employment ends, and so forth. I'm guessing that most people here have signed them, but perhaps weren't aware that's what they were or that the terms can be negotiated. Typically, my negotiations involve removing the noncompete. Also, the terms very often include wording to the effect that anything I create during the term of my employment belongs to the company regardless of whether or not company resources/knowledge were used. I always have that removed. > If the renege on it, can you sue them...? Sure, just like any other contract. Although most of the ones I've signed have contained arbitration clauses. I've never bothered to try to negotiate those out. > can I ask what field/vertical you work in? I'm just a regular software engineer. I've worked for Fortune 500 companies, small companies, startups, and things in between. I'm a generalist currently working on industrial control systems, but prior to that I was in data security. But I've worked in a variety of different sectors over the decades.

JohnFen 3y ago

I hear what you're saying and don't rally disagree much. At the same time, why are people uprooting their lives before they have a signed employment contract?? That seems a bit crazy.

tharkun__ 3y ago
While I agree you should always have said signed contract there's usually only a technical difference as most job offers mention that you have a probationary period during which either side can get out at any given time without consequences.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  What the job offer says doesn't matter. Once you have the offer, the negotiations begin. If you are incurring a large expense or risk to take the job, you should negotiate a clause in your contract that mitigates that risk. It's not a rare or unusual thing to do at all. A reasonable employer will understand the need for this and accommodate it. If they cannot or will not accommodate it, then it's an offer you should pass on -- the risk is just too great. At least for me, anyway. Everyone's risk tolerance is different. But if you don't do this, you are willingly accepting a huge level of risk. People willing to gamble like that have to be prepared to take losses.
  - alemanek 3y ago
    I am guessing you don’t work in the US. Formal work contracts that provide any real protections to the employee are essentially non-existent in the US. Best you are going to get is a relocation bonus which won’t need to be paid back in this situation.
    - slaw 3y ago
      In the US, formal work contract provide all protections written in it. You just most of the time don't negotiate any.
      - javagram 3y ago
        Given that such a contract is extremely unusual (except for executives), attempting to negotiate it would usually be a nonstarter. The big corporation will just move on as trying to get their legal and accounting bureaucracy to approve such a contract would be too difficult for the hiring manager/recruiter even if they really want the candidate.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        > Given that such a contract is extremely unusual Everyone keeps saying this and it's blowing my mind a little. I've only ever worked in the US -- but the only times I've worked (over a 4 decade career) without an employment contract was when I was working "unskilled" jobs: fast food, janitor, etc.
        tharkun__ 3y ago
        I don't think your parent was trying to say that contracts existing are unusual. Just that being able to negotiate a contract that has such provisions and contingencies as you said you'd want to negotiate for are extremely unusual outside of executive positions. The truth probably lies somewhere in between but I do agree that it's not a common thing for your garden variety software developer to be able to negotiate such a thing with a corporation like Oracle. If you're the expert in relational algebra optimization, sure. If you're just another developer. Meh, I don't see it.
solardev 3y ago
What is an employment contract? Is that a British thing? I've never once had a contract for any of the companies I've ever worked for, in any industry, in any state in the USA. Maybe a letter of employment start or something, but contract? No way. They were always free to let me go whenever they wanted to (they never wanted to, thankfully).
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Is that a British thing? I have no idea. I've only ever worked in the US.
  - solardev 3y ago
    Huh. Ok, so... what is it? Like a legally binding agreement your employers would typically give you? I've never seen (or even heard) of such a thing. What's in it? Like does it guarantee you a job for a certain amount of time, or how does it work? If the renege on it, can you sue them...? And if it's relevant... can I ask what field/vertical you work in?
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > Like a legally binding agreement your employers would typically give you? Yes. It's a contract specifying what both the employer and you are agreeing to. > Like does it guarantee you a job for a certain amount of time, or how does it work? It can, if that's what you and the employer agree should be in it. It's just a contract like any other. They usually include when your employment will start, what your compensation is, what your duties are, and so forth. They often also contain noncompete/nondisclosure agreements, agreements on copyright assignments, what happens when your employment ends, and so forth. I'm guessing that most people here have signed them, but perhaps weren't aware that's what they were or that the terms can be negotiated. Typically, my negotiations involve removing the noncompete. Also, the terms very often include wording to the effect that anything I create during the term of my employment belongs to the company regardless of whether or not company resources/knowledge were used. I always have that removed. > If the renege on it, can you sue them...? Sure, just like any other contract. Although most of the ones I've signed have contained arbitration clauses. I've never bothered to try to negotiate those out. > can I ask what field/vertical you work in? I'm just a regular software engineer. I've worked for Fortune 500 companies, small companies, startups, and things in between. I'm a generalist currently working on industrial control systems, but prior to that I was in data security. But I've worked in a variety of different sectors over the decades.