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The point about the lifestyle industries is a good one. Europeans feel they have the good life, so why would they want to be more like Americans (who work like

The point about the lifestyle industries is a good one. Europeans feel they have the good life, so why would they want to be more like Americans (who work like crazy, have no safety net, and live with random gun violence) or like the Chinese (who slide into even greater autocracy)? Perhaps the drawbacks of American and Chinese society are the very factors contributing to their economic growth?

wkat4242 3y ago
Yeah I live in one of the lower-wage EU countries even though I'm from one of the higher-wage ones. Though in practice it doesn't really matter as cost of living is lower too, it just matters when buying electronics. Or a car but I don't need one where I live and I hate driving. And having completely free healthcare gives a lot of peace of mind. But I don't want to work harder to have more. I have enough to live comfortably. I don't get this whole ratrace thing and most people here don't. The Americans can have their expensive gadgets and double jobs to pay for it :) Though admittedly I'd love an Apple vision pro, I wouldn't want to live in American society so I could pay for it. There's a few things that I really don't like about it like the heavy income inequality and resulting crime, gun violence, heavy conservatism (eg pressure on gay rights which we can take for granted here - see Florida), lack of cheap healthcare and welfare safety net. The latter two are not things you always need but they're a great peace of mind knowing they're available when you do need them. It makes life less stressful. I don't want a loss of my job meaning I will lose my health insurance as well! And eventually they'll bring the price of gadgets down so we can afford it, after all the EU is too big a market to ignore. Ps: according to my American colleagues a lot of the US is economically worse off than we are, it's only a few central spots like silicon valley and New York that are bursting with money and bringing the average up? Here we have less differences in each country, though the difference between eastern European member states and northwestern is still huge. Ps.2: Sorry I wasn't trying to diss the U.S. but I really wouldn't want to live there. What might be a paradise society for some isn't the same for others.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  I find American culture overall is really kind of pointless and rudderless. It’s a seemingly hyper competitive place built on the idea of having money and material possessions = good over all else, including environmental destruction, but to what end ? For the benefit of 1% of the population? America also seems to need an enemy, there’s something in that.
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  > Yeah I live in one of the lower-wage EU countries even though I'm from one of the higher-wage ones. Though in practice it doesn't really matter as cost of living is lower too, it just matters when buying electronics. Or a car but I don't need one where I live and I hate driving. And having completely free healthcare gives a lot of peace of mind. And cheaper real estate means you are paid less and build less equity in a house. But like the car, people convince themselves they don't want it so they don't have to admit they can't have it anyways. > and resulting crime, gun violence A lot of it can be traced to our southern border and gang activity. Something I'm surprised Europeans don't realize considering the rise in violent crimes post 2015 migrant crisis...
  - kolinko 3y ago
    „But like the car, people convince themselves they don’t want it” If you live in Europe, you often seriously don’t want or need a car. I didn’t have a car for 8 years - even though I could afford it easilt, and it took pandemic and a shutdown of my favourite car sharing company to finally get my own car. Aside from winters, a mix of Lime scooters, trams and Ubers works very well in Poland - and it’s way healthier.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    > And cheaper real estate means you are paid less and build less equity in a house. But like the car, people convince themselves they don't want it so they don't have to admit they can't have it anyways. I used to have a car when I lived in Ireland because public transport there is absolutely terrible, even in the cities (even Dublin has only mediocre transport). Here in Spain it's amazing. I really don't need a car, nor the worries of service, repairs, insurance, taxes, fuel costs, parking... Driving to work in Ireland used to stress me out so much because the road design is stupid there too (too many roundabouts), which causes access roads to congest and people press their right of way really hard as a result. I've had so many near misses. I'm really so so happy I don't need a car now. And 20 euro covers my entire travel needs for a whole month. I walk where I can and for everything else that 20 bucks covers an amazing metro, tram, bus, train and cablecar network. And equity is a paper thing. It doesn't actually improve my quality of life. > A lot of it can be traced to our southern border and gang activity. Something I'm surprised Europeans don't realize considering the rise in violent crimes post 2015 migrant crisis... Violent crime here in Spain hasn't really increased and this is where a ton of the migrants arrive and still reside. It's more in the Northern countries where they let mafias get out of hand due to budget cuts on policing, and their harbours being big targets of drug trafficking.
lockhouse 3y ago
I have to disagree with one point you made. Despite what the media would have you believe, gun violence in America is not random. The vast majority of it is gang related or suicide. We don’t have a gun problem, we have an inner city crime problem and a mental health problem, both probably fueled largely by the other problems you mentioned, such as our work culture and lack of social safety nets. Another point I’d like to make is that modern European lifestyles exist partly due to American military hegemony, which has allowed European nations to redirect their defense spending to social programs.
- ix-ix 3y ago
  You may have an "inner city crime problem" but that does not mean you don't have a gun problem. It absolutely is both.
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    The way you said “you” implies you’re not from the United States. Gun violence is one of those areas where nearly all American media surrounding it is heavily biased. Politicians seize on this every time to push gun control measures which usually have nothing to do with the specifics of the incident, such as pushing for universal background checks when the gun used was legally purchased by one of their parents and improperly secured, or pushing for an “assault rifle” ban when the weapon was a handgun. This makes it painfully obvious that most of these gun control measures are really just intended to disarm the opposition to future authoritarian plans. The Second Amendment wasn’t put into the Bill of Rights just so some backwoods hicks could go deer hunting.
    - ix-ix 3y ago
      I am not American, but I have a master's in American history. I stand by what I said.
- 3dbrows 3y ago
  > Another point I’d like to make is that modern European lifestyles exist partly due to American military hegemony, which has allowed European nations to redirect their defense spending to social programs. I see Americans make this comment a lot. Putting aside whether or not it is true that it enables higher domestic social spending, the comment never seems to come with the realisation that many Europeans deride the “need” for higher defence spending. This is due to Europeans’ perception that American military adventurism is what creates the instability from which Europe requires American protection in the first place. Many Europeans will say: “America, please stop bombing the mideast or continuously expanding NATO; this will stop creating problems that result in you demanding we spend more.” In other words, many Americans presuppose the validity of their military adventurism and assume Europeans agree with it, and thus think they should want to participate in funding the defence of blowback from it. By contrast, many Europeans would rather America did not try to play global policeman, or if it’s going to do so, then happily accept paying for European defence as the price of Pax Americana / US hegemony.

wkat4242 3y ago

Yeah I live in one of the lower-wage EU countries even though I'm from one of the higher-wage ones. Though in practice it doesn't really matter as cost of living is lower too, it just matters when buying electronics. Or a car but I don't need one where I live and I hate driving. And having completely free healthcare gives a lot of peace of mind. But I don't want to work harder to have more. I have enough to live comfortably. I don't get this whole ratrace thing and most people here don't. The Americans can have their expensive gadgets and double jobs to pay for it :) Though admittedly I'd love an Apple vision pro, I wouldn't want to live in American society so I could pay for it. There's a few things that I really don't like about it like the heavy income inequality and resulting crime, gun violence, heavy conservatism (eg pressure on gay rights which we can take for granted here - see Florida), lack of cheap healthcare and welfare safety net. The latter two are not things you always need but they're a great peace of mind knowing they're available when you do need them. It makes life less stressful. I don't want a loss of my job meaning I will lose my health insurance as well! And eventually they'll bring the price of gadgets down so we can afford it, after all the EU is too big a market to ignore. Ps: according to my American colleagues a lot of the US is economically worse off than we are, it's only a few central spots like silicon valley and New York that are bursting with money and bringing the average up? Here we have less differences in each country, though the difference between eastern European member states and northwestern is still huge. Ps.2: Sorry I wasn't trying to diss the U.S. but I really wouldn't want to live there. What might be a paradise society for some isn't the same for others.

ChatGTP 3y ago
I find American culture overall is really kind of pointless and rudderless. It’s a seemingly hyper competitive place built on the idea of having money and material possessions = good over all else, including environmental destruction, but to what end ? For the benefit of 1% of the population? America also seems to need an enemy, there’s something in that.
908B64B197 3y ago
> Yeah I live in one of the lower-wage EU countries even though I'm from one of the higher-wage ones. Though in practice it doesn't really matter as cost of living is lower too, it just matters when buying electronics. Or a car but I don't need one where I live and I hate driving. And having completely free healthcare gives a lot of peace of mind. And cheaper real estate means you are paid less and build less equity in a house. But like the car, people convince themselves they don't want it so they don't have to admit they can't have it anyways. > and resulting crime, gun violence A lot of it can be traced to our southern border and gang activity. Something I'm surprised Europeans don't realize considering the rise in violent crimes post 2015 migrant crisis...
- kolinko 3y ago
  „But like the car, people convince themselves they don’t want it” If you live in Europe, you often seriously don’t want or need a car. I didn’t have a car for 8 years - even though I could afford it easilt, and it took pandemic and a shutdown of my favourite car sharing company to finally get my own car. Aside from winters, a mix of Lime scooters, trams and Ubers works very well in Poland - and it’s way healthier.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  > And cheaper real estate means you are paid less and build less equity in a house. But like the car, people convince themselves they don't want it so they don't have to admit they can't have it anyways. I used to have a car when I lived in Ireland because public transport there is absolutely terrible, even in the cities (even Dublin has only mediocre transport). Here in Spain it's amazing. I really don't need a car, nor the worries of service, repairs, insurance, taxes, fuel costs, parking... Driving to work in Ireland used to stress me out so much because the road design is stupid there too (too many roundabouts), which causes access roads to congest and people press their right of way really hard as a result. I've had so many near misses. I'm really so so happy I don't need a car now. And 20 euro covers my entire travel needs for a whole month. I walk where I can and for everything else that 20 bucks covers an amazing metro, tram, bus, train and cablecar network. And equity is a paper thing. It doesn't actually improve my quality of life. > A lot of it can be traced to our southern border and gang activity. Something I'm surprised Europeans don't realize considering the rise in violent crimes post 2015 migrant crisis... Violent crime here in Spain hasn't really increased and this is where a ton of the migrants arrive and still reside. It's more in the Northern countries where they let mafias get out of hand due to budget cuts on policing, and their harbours being big targets of drug trafficking.

lockhouse 3y ago

I have to disagree with one point you made. Despite what the media would have you believe, gun violence in America is not random. The vast majority of it is gang related or suicide. We don’t have a gun problem, we have an inner city crime problem and a mental health problem, both probably fueled largely by the other problems you mentioned, such as our work culture and lack of social safety nets. Another point I’d like to make is that modern European lifestyles exist partly due to American military hegemony, which has allowed European nations to redirect their defense spending to social programs.

ix-ix 3y ago
You may have an "inner city crime problem" but that does not mean you don't have a gun problem. It absolutely is both.
- lockhouse 3y ago
  The way you said “you” implies you’re not from the United States. Gun violence is one of those areas where nearly all American media surrounding it is heavily biased. Politicians seize on this every time to push gun control measures which usually have nothing to do with the specifics of the incident, such as pushing for universal background checks when the gun used was legally purchased by one of their parents and improperly secured, or pushing for an “assault rifle” ban when the weapon was a handgun. This makes it painfully obvious that most of these gun control measures are really just intended to disarm the opposition to future authoritarian plans. The Second Amendment wasn’t put into the Bill of Rights just so some backwoods hicks could go deer hunting.
  - ix-ix 3y ago
    I am not American, but I have a master's in American history. I stand by what I said.
3dbrows 3y ago
> Another point I’d like to make is that modern European lifestyles exist partly due to American military hegemony, which has allowed European nations to redirect their defense spending to social programs. I see Americans make this comment a lot. Putting aside whether or not it is true that it enables higher domestic social spending, the comment never seems to come with the realisation that many Europeans deride the “need” for higher defence spending. This is due to Europeans’ perception that American military adventurism is what creates the instability from which Europe requires American protection in the first place. Many Europeans will say: “America, please stop bombing the mideast or continuously expanding NATO; this will stop creating problems that result in you demanding we spend more.” In other words, many Americans presuppose the validity of their military adventurism and assume Europeans agree with it, and thus think they should want to participate in funding the defence of blowback from it. By contrast, many Europeans would rather America did not try to play global policeman, or if it’s going to do so, then happily accept paying for European defence as the price of Pax Americana / US hegemony.