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Is is customary to comment on a submission without upvoting it? That's how I feel about this one... No disrespect and no offence meant, but I'll never understa

Is is customary to comment on a submission without upvoting it? That's how I feel about this one... No disrespect and no offence meant, but I'll never understand all these privileged people who have a lot of money, and subsequently free time, and still feel this way about their lives. How come it's always poor, lower/mid class people who don't have enough money that always complain about not being able to do things (hobbies, interests, desires...) and always the rich, upper class people who complain that they don't have an interest in anything since they can have everything :-/

golemotron 3y ago
If it happens to you, you'll know what it's like. That is what is like with all life situations. They are mystery until they happen to you. You don't know what cancer is like or the death of a loved one is like until those things happen to you, and you don't know what the boredom of abundance is like until you have it either. On the latter, the important thing to get is that much more of what motivates us survival driven than most people realize. When survival is sort of guaranteed, a lot of motivation can dry up along with a lot of the juice of life.
- NKosmatos 3y ago
  That's very well put and I fully agree with what you describe on the majority of the situations (i.e birth of a child, loss of a pet, other important thing in life...), but I'm a bit confused on how this nicely written "boredom of abundance" can create problems on people. Oh well, that's probably because I don't have enough money (and time) to do all the things I want to do :-)
  - golemotron 3y ago
    I'd wish that for you but it might not make you happy. That's the paradox.
- onos 3y ago
  A silly example: when I was young I loved the game civ. In some games I would occasionally actually succeed at defeating all competition. But the game wouldn’t end cause you could try to go to another solar system or something still. But it was much less fun once the competition was over.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
  You're seriously comparing a cancer diagnosis with being bored while reveling in nigh-infinite opportunity? There is a simple and obvious solution to this "abundance boredom": remove the abundance. There. Done. Put all your money in charity or, if that's too altruistic of you, lock it away in investments where you can't get at it easily and force yourself to live off of the national median income (~$38k individual, $70k household in the us). The thing about being poorer is that you can't do the opposite, so it is quite understandable that no one in a poorer position has any sympathy.
  - WA 3y ago
    This isn't about wanting sympathy. It's merely an observation.
  - boondoggle16 3y ago
    If you ever get there, you'll see ;) don't worry, you're not special, and you too can become bored with infinite money... it's just nature.
  - golemotron 3y ago
    > You're seriously comparing a cancer diagnosis with being bored while reveling in nigh-infinite opportunity? Yes I am. I can compare anything even grasshoppers and peanut butter. They often have different colors, but grasshoppers have more legs.
kardianos 3y ago
People, progressive especially, tend to believe that opportunity allows a pre-existing will to flourish. Progressives tend to believe the will to use opportunity is innate. As a social conservative, I disagree with this. Opportunity and will to make use of opportunity are two separate things and usually originate separately. Our will to make use of opportunity may come from necessity, social obligation, or some other developed desire. But this will is NOT innate. I believe this reality is one reason that diminishing social obligation, to both learn and to teach, to apprentice then master, is important to maintain. I believe this reality is why many progressive policies fall flat.
- nh23423fefe 3y ago
  Pretty weird "just so" assertion. conservative-progressive axis is devoid of insight
  - kardianos 3y ago
    It is weird that I believe that the will to use opportunity is not innate? Or weird that I see something in people who identify themselves as progressive that I, as a social conservative, is false?
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  As a progressive, I don't disagree that the will to use opportunity may not be universal; or at least that it may be scaled down a lot in some people in absence of compulsion. I think it's obvious that if you remove the necessity 'stick' of eviction, starvation, loss of a vehicle/internet access/autonomy/independence, etc that forces people to pursue 'opportunity' in the form of an otherwise unfulfilling and uncomfortable career, they won't show up to that hateful job anymore. I know some of my fellow progressives believe that we can offer UBI sufficient for basic necessities and people will still choose to show up and stock shelves, scrub plates, plunge toilets, or trowel concrete for $10/hr of 'fun money' opportunity, I think those people have probably never worked those fields in their life and have an insufficient imagination to predict how the people who currently do those things relate to their jobs. Where I disagree with you is that I don't think this maintenance of a will to use opportunity and social obligation is worth more than the suffering of the people who are coerced by our maintenance of this necessity, or who fail to meet the demands placed on them and experience the consequences of that failure. Yes, were we stranded together from Shackleton's Endurance hauling sledges, or adrift at sea rowing a lifeboat, or subsistence farming to eke out survival on a desert island, and everyone had to pull their weight or we'd all die, I'd pull my fair weight and I'd advocate for the expulsion of anyone who didn't pull theirs and in so doing imperil the entire group. No, we are not stranded together in this way on Spaceship Earth. We have enormously greater wealth and resources than we require to sustain our existence. No longer does 90% of society need to devote themselves to farming wheat at 7 bushels per acre to provide bread for a himself and a small fraction in excess that with 40 of his neighbors' farms can support handful of non-farmers for his community like a blacksmith, a miller, a tailor, and a feudal lord. A single tractor can seed, fertilize, or harvest dozens of acres per hour, and achieve yields exceeding 70 bushels per acre. We merely have to distribute the value more equitably, even if the amount of that value is halved, quartered, or decimated by people opting out of the will to work.
liftsh 3y ago
And the thing that links those two groups of people is their desire for things. Never was religious, but this core point of Buddhism (from an ELI5, admittedly) really resonated with me. Wanting fewer things indeed seems to makes you happier.
Swizec 3y ago
> How come it's always poor, lower/mid class people who don't have enough money that always complain about not being able to do things (hobbies, interests, desires...) and always the rich, upper class people who complain that they don't have an interest in anything since they can have everything :-/ I used to be poor and then I stopped being poor. Long story. Not rich rich, but honestly wilder than any realistic expectations back home. Here’s what I noticed happens somewhere around the 180k to 250k salary range – you lose the fire in your belly. All the important things are taken care of, you’re easily saving enough money to retire early, nothing really presents a challenge. Oh you wanna go on vacation? Yeah just go. The money will sort itself out. Oh you want to buy a thing you like? Yeah, just buy it. There is no anticipation and excitement about the things that used to be a big treat yo self moment. It’s just easy. Sure you’re not buying fancy cars and big houses or whatever … but do you really even want to? Really? Those things add nothing substantial to your life. The hedonic treadmill is no lasting fun. Everything you actually need is trivial to obtain. So for those of us who learned that life is a grind from a young age, life loses some of the luster when the grind becomes unnecessary. Time to look elsewhere for fulfillment.
- boondoggle16 3y ago
  > So for those of us who learned that life is a grind from a young age, life loses some of the luster when the grind becomes unnecessary. Time to look elsewhere for fulfillment. Fascinating. That may explain why my privileged-from-birth coworkers feel so differently about things than I do. I also find life without the grind to be dull. It's like an MMO with a finished economy, no leveling up process, everyone just sitting around chatting? LOL. Take me to the new server, plz

golemotron 3y ago

If it happens to you, you'll know what it's like. That is what is like with all life situations. They are mystery until they happen to you. You don't know what cancer is like or the death of a loved one is like until those things happen to you, and you don't know what the boredom of abundance is like until you have it either. On the latter, the important thing to get is that much more of what motivates us survival driven than most people realize. When survival is sort of guaranteed, a lot of motivation can dry up along with a lot of the juice of life.

NKosmatos 3y ago
That's very well put and I fully agree with what you describe on the majority of the situations (i.e birth of a child, loss of a pet, other important thing in life...), but I'm a bit confused on how this nicely written "boredom of abundance" can create problems on people. Oh well, that's probably because I don't have enough money (and time) to do all the things I want to do :-)
- golemotron 3y ago
  I'd wish that for you but it might not make you happy. That's the paradox.
onos 3y ago
A silly example: when I was young I loved the game civ. In some games I would occasionally actually succeed at defeating all competition. But the game wouldn’t end cause you could try to go to another solar system or something still. But it was much less fun once the competition was over.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
You're seriously comparing a cancer diagnosis with being bored while reveling in nigh-infinite opportunity? There is a simple and obvious solution to this "abundance boredom": remove the abundance. There. Done. Put all your money in charity or, if that's too altruistic of you, lock it away in investments where you can't get at it easily and force yourself to live off of the national median income (~$38k individual, $70k household in the us). The thing about being poorer is that you can't do the opposite, so it is quite understandable that no one in a poorer position has any sympathy.
- WA 3y ago
  This isn't about wanting sympathy. It's merely an observation.
- boondoggle16 3y ago
  If you ever get there, you'll see ;) don't worry, you're not special, and you too can become bored with infinite money... it's just nature.
- golemotron 3y ago
  > You're seriously comparing a cancer diagnosis with being bored while reveling in nigh-infinite opportunity? Yes I am. I can compare anything even grasshoppers and peanut butter. They often have different colors, but grasshoppers have more legs.

kardianos 3y ago

People, progressive especially, tend to believe that opportunity allows a pre-existing will to flourish. Progressives tend to believe the will to use opportunity is innate. As a social conservative, I disagree with this. Opportunity and will to make use of opportunity are two separate things and usually originate separately. Our will to make use of opportunity may come from necessity, social obligation, or some other developed desire. But this will is NOT innate. I believe this reality is one reason that diminishing social obligation, to both learn and to teach, to apprentice then master, is important to maintain. I believe this reality is why many progressive policies fall flat.

nh23423fefe 3y ago
Pretty weird "just so" assertion. conservative-progressive axis is devoid of insight
- kardianos 3y ago
  It is weird that I believe that the will to use opportunity is not innate? Or weird that I see something in people who identify themselves as progressive that I, as a social conservative, is false?
LeifCarrotson 3y ago
As a progressive, I don't disagree that the will to use opportunity may not be universal; or at least that it may be scaled down a lot in some people in absence of compulsion. I think it's obvious that if you remove the necessity 'stick' of eviction, starvation, loss of a vehicle/internet access/autonomy/independence, etc that forces people to pursue 'opportunity' in the form of an otherwise unfulfilling and uncomfortable career, they won't show up to that hateful job anymore. I know some of my fellow progressives believe that we can offer UBI sufficient for basic necessities and people will still choose to show up and stock shelves, scrub plates, plunge toilets, or trowel concrete for $10/hr of 'fun money' opportunity, I think those people have probably never worked those fields in their life and have an insufficient imagination to predict how the people who currently do those things relate to their jobs. Where I disagree with you is that I don't think this maintenance of a will to use opportunity and social obligation is worth more than the suffering of the people who are coerced by our maintenance of this necessity, or who fail to meet the demands placed on them and experience the consequences of that failure. Yes, were we stranded together from Shackleton's Endurance hauling sledges, or adrift at sea rowing a lifeboat, or subsistence farming to eke out survival on a desert island, and everyone had to pull their weight or we'd all die, I'd pull my fair weight and I'd advocate for the expulsion of anyone who didn't pull theirs and in so doing imperil the entire group. No, we are not stranded together in this way on Spaceship Earth. We have enormously greater wealth and resources than we require to sustain our existence. No longer does 90% of society need to devote themselves to farming wheat at 7 bushels per acre to provide bread for a himself and a small fraction in excess that with 40 of his neighbors' farms can support handful of non-farmers for his community like a blacksmith, a miller, a tailor, and a feudal lord. A single tractor can seed, fertilize, or harvest dozens of acres per hour, and achieve yields exceeding 70 bushels per acre. We merely have to distribute the value more equitably, even if the amount of that value is halved, quartered, or decimated by people opting out of the will to work.

liftsh 3y ago

And the thing that links those two groups of people is their desire for things. Never was religious, but this core point of Buddhism (from an ELI5, admittedly) really resonated with me. Wanting fewer things indeed seems to makes you happier.

Swizec 3y ago

> How come it's always poor, lower/mid class people who don't have enough money that always complain about not being able to do things (hobbies, interests, desires...) and always the rich, upper class people who complain that they don't have an interest in anything since they can have everything :-/ I used to be poor and then I stopped being poor. Long story. Not rich rich, but honestly wilder than any realistic expectations back home. Here’s what I noticed happens somewhere around the 180k to 250k salary range – you lose the fire in your belly. All the important things are taken care of, you’re easily saving enough money to retire early, nothing really presents a challenge. Oh you wanna go on vacation? Yeah just go. The money will sort itself out. Oh you want to buy a thing you like? Yeah, just buy it. There is no anticipation and excitement about the things that used to be a big treat yo self moment. It’s just easy. Sure you’re not buying fancy cars and big houses or whatever … but do you really even want to? Really? Those things add nothing substantial to your life. The hedonic treadmill is no lasting fun. Everything you actually need is trivial to obtain. So for those of us who learned that life is a grind from a young age, life loses some of the luster when the grind becomes unnecessary. Time to look elsewhere for fulfillment.

boondoggle16 3y ago
> So for those of us who learned that life is a grind from a young age, life loses some of the luster when the grind becomes unnecessary. Time to look elsewhere for fulfillment. Fascinating. That may explain why my privileged-from-birth coworkers feel so differently about things than I do. I also find life without the grind to be dull. It's like an MMO with a finished economy, no leveling up process, everyone just sitting around chatting? LOL. Take me to the new server, plz