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So, a slave would phrase that "How is the food and shelter I receive from my master not the fruit of my labor?" Capitalism is a system where the people doing t

by esarbe 3y ago

So, a slave would phrase that "How is the food and shelter I receive from my master not the fruit of my labor?" Capitalism is a system where the people doing the work are not the ones deciding over the fruits of their labor. This decision is instead made by the entity that owns the means of production.

WJW 3y ago
Yes, that's what I said. Tbh I think it is fair for the provider of capital to be recompensed for their contribution, since factories and machine tools cost (lots of) money and they are an essential part of modern production. There would be no jobs for laborers without the input of capital owners, just as there would be no investment opportunities for capital owners without laborers. EDIT: WOW what a dishonest way to completely edit your post, and way to escalate this completely. A modern employee is in no way comparable to a slave, especially not the kind of employee likely to visit HN.
- thebooktocome 3y ago
  > A modern employee is in no way comparable to a slave, especially not the kind of employee likely to visit HN. What an elitist attitude. H1B visas are a modern form of forced labor you might be able to find some shred of empathy for, but I kind of doubt it.
  - WJW 3y ago
    I do indeed find it somewhat difficult to call something that people willingly apply for "forced labor". Forced labor is when the Taliban come to your village and force you to work under threat of shooting you and your entire family. I think you'll find very few people willing to volunteer for the Taliban option, while H1B applications were 9x oversubscribed in 2023. The US could do a lot better when it comes to worker rights, don't get me wrong. But comparing a H1B worker to an actual slave has a very misguided vision to what slavery is, and how it continues to impact people around the world today.
    - thebooktocome 3y ago
      I’m glad my impression of you was accurate.
- esarbe 3y ago
  Sorry about the late edit. Mea culpa. The Slave reference is not as inappropriate as you might think. The vast majority of people living in our modern capitalist systems are no more free to chose their employer than a a Slave in ancient societies or a Serf in medieval ones. They are bound by their respective circumstances and have little negotiation power. I'm happy that you are in a privileged position with more than enough negotiation power. It still doesn't change the fact that you don't get to enjoy the fruits of your labor, but you are left to enjoy some of the fruits of your labor by your employer. I'm curious; why do you think that there's a "capitalist" - that has enough resources to build a factory and buy the machines and the tools - and "laborers" in the first place?

by esarbe 3y ago

WJW 3y ago

Yes, that's what I said. Tbh I think it is fair for the provider of capital to be recompensed for their contribution, since factories and machine tools cost (lots of) money and they are an essential part of modern production. There would be no jobs for laborers without the input of capital owners, just as there would be no investment opportunities for capital owners without laborers. EDIT: WOW what a dishonest way to completely edit your post, and way to escalate this completely. A modern employee is in no way comparable to a slave, especially not the kind of employee likely to visit HN.

thebooktocome 3y ago
> A modern employee is in no way comparable to a slave, especially not the kind of employee likely to visit HN. What an elitist attitude. H1B visas are a modern form of forced labor you might be able to find some shred of empathy for, but I kind of doubt it.
- WJW 3y ago
  I do indeed find it somewhat difficult to call something that people willingly apply for "forced labor". Forced labor is when the Taliban come to your village and force you to work under threat of shooting you and your entire family. I think you'll find very few people willing to volunteer for the Taliban option, while H1B applications were 9x oversubscribed in 2023. The US could do a lot better when it comes to worker rights, don't get me wrong. But comparing a H1B worker to an actual slave has a very misguided vision to what slavery is, and how it continues to impact people around the world today.
  - thebooktocome 3y ago
    I’m glad my impression of you was accurate.
esarbe 3y ago
Sorry about the late edit. Mea culpa. The Slave reference is not as inappropriate as you might think. The vast majority of people living in our modern capitalist systems are no more free to chose their employer than a a Slave in ancient societies or a Serf in medieval ones. They are bound by their respective circumstances and have little negotiation power. I'm happy that you are in a privileged position with more than enough negotiation power. It still doesn't change the fact that you don't get to enjoy the fruits of your labor, but you are left to enjoy some of the fruits of your labor by your employer. I'm curious; why do you think that there's a "capitalist" - that has enough resources to build a factory and buy the machines and the tools - and "laborers" in the first place?