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I've found that that's mostly a fig leaf. It was the primary reason I left places. When I asked how to get the promotion and got that response, I got the promot

by lucumo 3y ago

I've found that that's mostly a fig leaf. It was the primary reason I left places. When I asked how to get the promotion and got that response, I got the promotion by moving to another company. And of course I performed well in the new role, because it never was about performance. It was about people not expecting juniors to grow so quickly to medior, or about not having a free "promotion slot" this year, or it's just not a priority, or other organizational stuff.

ZephyrBlu 3y ago
For junior/mid level developers backwards-facing levelling doesn't really matter. For senior it matters more, and for staff/manager it matters a lot more. There are usually organizational constraints like you mention, but that doesn't preclude there being a reason for backwards-facing levelling.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
scarface_74 3y ago
Junior to mid it doesn’t matter. A “senior” and above based on the leveling guidelines at every tech company that I’m aware of is not based on whether you “code well” or even how knowledgeable you are. It’s based on “scope” and “impact”.
- lucumo 3y ago
  As a medior, I've led a team of seniors on a mission critical project for several years, after which my manager said "maybe we should consider promoting you in another year or so". It's not scope and impact either.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    And then it’s time to change jobs now that you can answer soft skill questions in STAR format that shows “scope” and “impact”. But a new job is not going to give you a senior position if you haven’t already demonstrated it at your previous job. Yes, I realize titles are meaningless outside of major tech companies with real leveling guidelines. I worked at your standard enterprise/Corp dev jobs all of my career until 2020.
    - lucumo 3y ago
      Well, yes. That was my point. When companies say they want you to perform at the next level before promoting you, it's just something to say that's semi-friendly and still means no. Believe the no, don't believe the reason.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        What I’m saying is that in either case, you have to perform at the next level to get the job. A: Perform at the next level, go through the internal promo process and get promoted. B: if you want to change jobs and get a job at the next level, you still have to work at the next level at your current job so you can convince your potential employer that you’re capable. In other words, there is no way of getting promoted reliably without operating at that next level first.
        lucumo 3y ago
        I just added that in my experience A doesn't really exist. I have seen plenty of companies that pretend they have an A-policy, but none that actually do. Believing companies when they say you get a promotion when you perform at the next level is naive. And even if it's true - which you shouldn't believe without proof - strategy B is still faster than following strategy A. Only strategy B is reliable.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        I’ve been doing this for a long time. 25 years between 6 companies you’ve never heard of and one former F10 non tech company. There were no formal leveling guidelines and I only got one raise that was more than 4% and that was in 2000. If I wanted a “raise” I had to switch jobs. I agree with you completely. But now I do work at $BigTech. The promo process is real. People get promoted every quarter. On the other hand, it is still easier to “boomerang” - get hired at the next level at a new company and then come back - than it is to get promoted at your current company. Also because “salary compression and inversion” are real. Meaning, that getting promoted internally will still lead to lower compensation than someone coming in at your same level.

by lucumo 3y ago

ZephyrBlu 3y ago

For junior/mid level developers backwards-facing levelling doesn't really matter. For senior it matters more, and for staff/manager it matters a lot more. There are usually organizational constraints like you mention, but that doesn't preclude there being a reason for backwards-facing levelling.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

scarface_74 3y ago

Junior to mid it doesn’t matter. A “senior” and above based on the leveling guidelines at every tech company that I’m aware of is not based on whether you “code well” or even how knowledgeable you are. It’s based on “scope” and “impact”.

lucumo 3y ago
As a medior, I've led a team of seniors on a mission critical project for several years, after which my manager said "maybe we should consider promoting you in another year or so". It's not scope and impact either.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  And then it’s time to change jobs now that you can answer soft skill questions in STAR format that shows “scope” and “impact”. But a new job is not going to give you a senior position if you haven’t already demonstrated it at your previous job. Yes, I realize titles are meaningless outside of major tech companies with real leveling guidelines. I worked at your standard enterprise/Corp dev jobs all of my career until 2020.
  - lucumo 3y ago
    Well, yes. That was my point. When companies say they want you to perform at the next level before promoting you, it's just something to say that's semi-friendly and still means no. Believe the no, don't believe the reason.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      What I’m saying is that in either case, you have to perform at the next level to get the job. A: Perform at the next level, go through the internal promo process and get promoted. B: if you want to change jobs and get a job at the next level, you still have to work at the next level at your current job so you can convince your potential employer that you’re capable. In other words, there is no way of getting promoted reliably without operating at that next level first.
      - lucumo 3y ago
        I just added that in my experience A doesn't really exist. I have seen plenty of companies that pretend they have an A-policy, but none that actually do. Believing companies when they say you get a promotion when you perform at the next level is naive. And even if it's true - which you shouldn't believe without proof - strategy B is still faster than following strategy A. Only strategy B is reliable.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        I’ve been doing this for a long time. 25 years between 6 companies you’ve never heard of and one former F10 non tech company. There were no formal leveling guidelines and I only got one raise that was more than 4% and that was in 2000. If I wanted a “raise” I had to switch jobs. I agree with you completely. But now I do work at $BigTech. The promo process is real. People get promoted every quarter. On the other hand, it is still easier to “boomerang” - get hired at the next level at a new company and then come back - than it is to get promoted at your current company. Also because “salary compression and inversion” are real. Meaning, that getting promoted internally will still lead to lower compensation than someone coming in at your same level.