5 ms·

Sounds like a standard Creole language. I know that phenomena related to merging languages of populations in contact are well studied, but don't know enough to

Sounds like a standard Creole language. I know that phenomena related to merging languages of populations in contact are well studied, but don't know enough to link to any relevant lit. sorry.

4gotunameagain 3y ago
I think Creole is different, in the sense that there is emergent grammar as well. While spanglish uses a combination of English & Spanish grammar, and is more close to a mixed language
afiori 3y ago
EDIT: This comment has significant inaccuracies. Creole languages are more about "20 people speaking 20 different languages create a new common merged language", spanglish sound more like "20k bilinguals with varying preference between the 2 languages mix and match the 2 languages for convenience". This assuming that most spanglish speakers could hold a conversation in either languages.
- hervature 3y ago
  > "20 people speaking 20 different languages create a new common merged language" If you can provide an example of such a diverse set of languages becoming a new language, that would be interesting. Creole has nothing to do with the number of languages. Creole is what you get when two groups of people with no bilingual speakers are forced to interact and develop a new language. Normally, it starts as a pidgin to facilitate trade but then develops into a full fledged language. The main difference with Spanglish being that the speakers often know both languages to a modest degree but probably would not be considered native by other native speakers. Also, there are almost 1M Dominicans alone in NYC. 20k makes it sound like some cute phenomena happening in Little Havana in Miami.
  - afiori 3y ago
    > Creole has nothing to do with the number of languages. I agree, I was misremembering. After a quick refresher I agree that spanglish fits the Creole definition much better than I initially considered. > there are almost 1M Dominicans alone in NYC Not all 1M people interact with each other, I was talking about the overlapping sets of social circles areound people, not the total count.
    - wrp 3y ago
      I hate to use Wikipedia as an authority but: Spanglish is not a creole or dialect of Spanish because, though people claim they are native Spanglish speakers, Spanglish itself is not a language on its own, but speakers speak English or Spanish with a heavy influence from the other language. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanglish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanglish)
      - afiori 3y ago
        I agree, but here I was talking about the creation of the language, my opinion was that a language started like spanglish could not be a creole.
        wrp 3y ago
        As the term "creole" is used in linguistics, it means a language that: a) started as a contact language, and b) has become the mother tongue of a group. So, I think you might be right, because Spanglish originated as a speech among English-Spanish bilinguals rather than as a contact language between English and Spanish communities. If Spanglish became the mother tongue of a group who couldn't speak Spanish or English, then, well...I'm not sure.
        afiori 3y ago
        I had no intentions to opine on b) but according to alehlopeh a few levels up [0] it might be true [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36383907 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36383907
  - nwiswell 3y ago
    > If you can provide an example of such a diverse set of languages becoming a new language, that would be interesting. It's certainly not 20 languages, but Singlish (Singapore creole) has a number of influences. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singlish https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singlish
  - mariodiana 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tok_Pisin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tok_Pisin

Sounds like a standard Creole language. I know that phenomena related to merging languages of populations in contact are well studied, but don't know enough to link to any relevant lit. sorry.

4gotunameagain 3y ago

I think Creole is different, in the sense that there is emergent grammar as well. While spanglish uses a combination of English & Spanish grammar, and is more close to a mixed language

afiori 3y ago

EDIT: This comment has significant inaccuracies. Creole languages are more about "20 people speaking 20 different languages create a new common merged language", spanglish sound more like "20k bilinguals with varying preference between the 2 languages mix and match the 2 languages for convenience". This assuming that most spanglish speakers could hold a conversation in either languages.

hervature 3y ago
> "20 people speaking 20 different languages create a new common merged language" If you can provide an example of such a diverse set of languages becoming a new language, that would be interesting. Creole has nothing to do with the number of languages. Creole is what you get when two groups of people with no bilingual speakers are forced to interact and develop a new language. Normally, it starts as a pidgin to facilitate trade but then develops into a full fledged language. The main difference with Spanglish being that the speakers often know both languages to a modest degree but probably would not be considered native by other native speakers. Also, there are almost 1M Dominicans alone in NYC. 20k makes it sound like some cute phenomena happening in Little Havana in Miami.
- afiori 3y ago
  > Creole has nothing to do with the number of languages. I agree, I was misremembering. After a quick refresher I agree that spanglish fits the Creole definition much better than I initially considered. > there are almost 1M Dominicans alone in NYC Not all 1M people interact with each other, I was talking about the overlapping sets of social circles areound people, not the total count.
  - wrp 3y ago
    I hate to use Wikipedia as an authority but: Spanglish is not a creole or dialect of Spanish because, though people claim they are native Spanglish speakers, Spanglish itself is not a language on its own, but speakers speak English or Spanish with a heavy influence from the other language. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanglish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanglish)
    - afiori 3y ago
      I agree, but here I was talking about the creation of the language, my opinion was that a language started like spanglish could not be a creole.
      - wrp 3y ago
        As the term "creole" is used in linguistics, it means a language that: a) started as a contact language, and b) has become the mother tongue of a group. So, I think you might be right, because Spanglish originated as a speech among English-Spanish bilinguals rather than as a contact language between English and Spanish communities. If Spanglish became the mother tongue of a group who couldn't speak Spanish or English, then, well...I'm not sure.
        afiori 3y ago
        I had no intentions to opine on b) but according to alehlopeh a few levels up [0] it might be true [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36383907 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36383907
- nwiswell 3y ago
  > If you can provide an example of such a diverse set of languages becoming a new language, that would be interesting. It's certainly not 20 languages, but Singlish (Singapore creole) has a number of influences. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singlish https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singlish
- mariodiana 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tok_Pisin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tok_Pisin