6 ms·

Is it just me, or does using mind-altering substances to get through one's daily schedule seem like it crosses the line? I'm always a little baffled when peopl

Is it just me, or does using mind-altering substances to get through one's daily schedule seem like it crosses the line? I'm always a little baffled when people sacrifice their health for work - it's a very bad decision in the long term. You can always find another job, but once you damage your health, you may never get it back.

Jach 15y ago
Do you drink coffee or caffeinated soda? Also Modafinil by itself doesn't seem to cause any health problems, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. The impure Adrafinil can cause liver problems though. I'd agree that a drug that gave work benefits but resulted in brain damage 2 years later isn't worth it, but let's be specific when talking about what health risks are around for particular chemicals, diets, and chairs/no chairs. My own experience with Modafinil is that it lets me focus intently on one or a handful of things for longer periods of time, but doesn't give me much if any boost in willpower to pick, so I rely on putting myself in the right environment where there's only a few options to pick from.
- w1ntermute 15y ago
  > Do you drink coffee or caffeinated soda? In fact, I don't, and precisely for this reason. Caffeine addictions seem to be just as bad to me. Instead, I sleep more (enough so I don't have to use an alarm) and strive to cut unnecessary things from my life to save time. For example, I know it's a little cliche, but people survived without TV until 50 or 60 years ago. I got rid of my TV, and it saved me a lot of time.
  - nkohari 15y ago
    Do you eat sugary foods? Fatty foods? Ingesting sugar and fat causes your brain to release dopamine. Without this mind-altering biochemistry, people wouldn't be nearly as compelled to eat a piece of a chocolate cake or a piece of bacon. (Note: dopamine reabsorption is also slowed by caffeine, which is why it improves your mood.) My point is not to be pedantic, it's to say that no matter what you're ingesting, you're altering your mood. While I'd obviously agree that becoming addicted to mood-altering substances isn't a good thing, I think that (like sugar and fat) they can be used responsibly.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- gwern 15y ago
  > The impure Adrafinil can cause liver problems though. Adrafinil always needs disclaimers, but looks like it is now a thing of the past with Olmifon shutting down production.
JulianMorrison 15y ago
Err, nope, coffee is pretty popular. The differences between coffee and modafinil are: coffee tastes better, modafinil does the same job for longer with less side effects.
- w1ntermute 15y ago
  Popularity is a poor way to judge whether or not something is good for you. If you went back in time 60 years and asked someone whether inhaling large quantities of carcinogenic gases was a bad idea, they'd say "Err, nope, cigarettes are pretty popular" too.
  - corin_ 15y ago
    I think that his point was that you wouldn't walk around the office pointing at everyone with a cup of coffee and saying "that crosses the line". In reply to your original comment - for work you don't care about, I'd agree with you, but plenty of people who do stuff like this, particularly I assume when it comes to HN readers, really do care about their work. For example there's plenty of times I'll work more hours than I technically have to because I want to, and so if I were to take drugs to help that, it wouldn't neccesarily be a case of "get a new job". Incidentally I do smoke, because I enjoy it more than I care about the health risks right now.
- Tossrock 15y ago
  Actually, modafinil is practically tasteless, which I would say is objectively better than the bitter taste of coffee. Of course, it's possible to train yourself to enjoy that bitter taste through operant conditioning, but it's not really a "better" taste.
  - gwern 15y ago
    Or you could drink tea, which is tasty, and then you also get both caffeine and theanine.
    - randallsquared 15y ago
NinetyNine 15y ago
Whether this drug does damage your health in the long run is no where near determined. I think, more interestingly, I'd ask if it were to become known that modafinil (or adderall) were harmful long term, would people still use it to gain competitive advantage. If we gain a nootropic with significant effects, at what point does it become disadvantageous not to jump on the mystery train? The 'line' that can be crossed is different for everyone.
radu_floricica 15y ago
There are plenty of mind altering substances in our diet. I eagerly await the day we can culturally accept that alcohol is an archaic drug, and we can replace it with modern alternatives that don't destroy livers and families. Modafinil could already be a modern alternative to coffee. It's definitely not perfect, but in some ways it's a lot better and it seems to be safe enough. It's far from perfect - for example I'm in the 10% who get headaches from it, so I prefer not to use it. But when a better alternative comes... I can't wait to replace caffeine.
- SageRaven 15y ago
  We had a great replacement for caffeine -- ephedrine. Mini-Thins were a staple of my college life. Then they banned it (I blame media hysteria), and now I'm stuck with the steeping ephedra plant leaves (known as "Mormon tea" in these parts) for the occasional late-night productivity boost.
  - georgieporgie 15y ago
    My understanding is that ephedrine was one of very few drugs that had a demonstrated ability to increase metabolism and decrease hunger, at least when combined with caffeine[1]. It did so in relative safety, and the only deaths I'm aware of were due to overdose. Given the obesity problem in the US, I'm still amazed that it got banned. [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1318281 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1318281
  - TruthElixirX 15y ago
    Try Bronkaid.
jakeonthemove 15y ago
Doesn't seem like that to me... Taking psychoactives is like a shortcut if you don't want to (or more likely just can't!) do it the hard way (with willpower alone). Besides, there are people who smoke and drink and still live longer than their "health-freak" peers - I still find that interesting and somewhat unfair. Also, using caffeine pills instead of coffee and recommending them to others leads to wide eyes and "you take drugs?" kind of questions - apparently, that is crossing the line, yet drinking two huge mugs of coffee in a row isn't. Human psychology, go figure :-)...
driverdan 15y ago
Everything you put in your body is a mind-altering substance. Food, coffee, beer, etc all provide different chemicals to your brain. I used to have a similar mindset to yours. I didn't use caffeine and didn't even like taking something for headaches. When I looked at it from another perspective I changed my mind. It's irrational to not take something if the benefits exceed costs. If you can take something, with benefits that outweigh the side effects, why wouldn't you? Everything has costs and benefits. Of course most people will underestimate risk and overestimate benefits so you have to do this carefully. Caffeine is a perfect example. When taken in proper dosage caffeine is beneficial with almost no side effects. The biggest side effect is addiction which isn't much of a problem with its availability and is easy to overcome.
Dn_Ab 15y ago
Do you consume sugar, vitamins or oxygen? Have you ever inhaled Nitrogen Oxide or maybe stood near a car while its engine was on? Nevermind. This concern of long term health is reducible to: what effect does taking this action have on my probability of living for X more years at present functioning or better. Notice that merely being alive negatively impacts this, while when you are alive positively impacts the odds. Being sedentary and sitting for most of your day affects the probability very negatively. Is sitting most of your day worse for you than taking modafinil daily? I suspect being sedentary is far worse for you. Or another, we can compare the effects of modafinil with getting into a car on a similar basis. With some basic knowledge of brain chemistry, claimed effects of the drug, understanding of placebo effect (~occurs in 1 in 3 or consider: drug OR Expectation/placebo Inferior to Drug AND Expectation), the drug's statistics, poor methodology in medical statistics and years of drug availability you can form a decent prior. Based on my prior, taking modafinil is certainly not more lethal or less healthy than getting in a car and being near its fumes. So fear of health effects without any reasonable basis are not a rational argument to me. The supposed strong adverse effects? This is an argument for more understanding of how metabolisms and bodies differ, I have a confirmed strong allergy to nuts for example. Peanuts are much more dangerous to me than modafinil. Yet I do not take modafinil. Not based on some unsubstantiated reverence for default biochemistry but instead on reasoned arguments. Its effects seem like they would impact creative thinking negatively. Furthermore, it is expensive and does not appear to have superior effects beyond being less addictive, a smoother delivery and a safer high dose cardiovascular profile than caffeine [1]. That is, modafinil does not appear to be any better at keeping you awake or focused than caffeine. Similarly, I do not take caffeine because of its dependency forming nature and while it appears to boost working memory, enough studies indicate it antagonizes hippocampal function [2] to motivate me to minimize caffeine intake to every few weeks or less, as necessary. The mechanisms for modafinil are different so we can't expect all effects to be the same as caffeine. But it too seems to effect some improvement in working memory - most noticeable when the individual is lower performing [3] but according to [4] modafinil does show some negative effects on long term memory processes situated at the prefrontal cortex. in rats. Remember though, just because something appears in a medical journal doesn't make it true or accurate, especially when done on animal models or cell cultures. Nonetheless, the benefits in contrast with monetary costs and minute risks make modafinil not worth it and caffeine a very irregular thing for me. Notice that I am not attacking your reluctance to take modafinil but rather, your opinion seems to be based on a nebulous definition of what a drug is and an assumption that the brain's architecture is optimal and any attempt to alter it will definitely be negative. See also - Sulbutiamine. A vitamin B1 dimer. [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11862356 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11862356 [2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19217915 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19217915 [3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15221200 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15221200 [4] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20800665 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20800665

Jach 15y ago

Do you drink coffee or caffeinated soda? Also Modafinil by itself doesn't seem to cause any health problems, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. The impure Adrafinil can cause liver problems though. I'd agree that a drug that gave work benefits but resulted in brain damage 2 years later isn't worth it, but let's be specific when talking about what health risks are around for particular chemicals, diets, and chairs/no chairs. My own experience with Modafinil is that it lets me focus intently on one or a handful of things for longer periods of time, but doesn't give me much if any boost in willpower to pick, so I rely on putting myself in the right environment where there's only a few options to pick from.

w1ntermute 15y ago
> Do you drink coffee or caffeinated soda? In fact, I don't, and precisely for this reason. Caffeine addictions seem to be just as bad to me. Instead, I sleep more (enough so I don't have to use an alarm) and strive to cut unnecessary things from my life to save time. For example, I know it's a little cliche, but people survived without TV until 50 or 60 years ago. I got rid of my TV, and it saved me a lot of time.
- nkohari 15y ago
  Do you eat sugary foods? Fatty foods? Ingesting sugar and fat causes your brain to release dopamine. Without this mind-altering biochemistry, people wouldn't be nearly as compelled to eat a piece of a chocolate cake or a piece of bacon. (Note: dopamine reabsorption is also slowed by caffeine, which is why it improves your mood.) My point is not to be pedantic, it's to say that no matter what you're ingesting, you're altering your mood. While I'd obviously agree that becoming addicted to mood-altering substances isn't a good thing, I think that (like sugar and fat) they can be used responsibly.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
gwern 15y ago
> The impure Adrafinil can cause liver problems though. Adrafinil always needs disclaimers, but looks like it is now a thing of the past with Olmifon shutting down production.

JulianMorrison 15y ago

Err, nope, coffee is pretty popular. The differences between coffee and modafinil are: coffee tastes better, modafinil does the same job for longer with less side effects.

w1ntermute 15y ago
Popularity is a poor way to judge whether or not something is good for you. If you went back in time 60 years and asked someone whether inhaling large quantities of carcinogenic gases was a bad idea, they'd say "Err, nope, cigarettes are pretty popular" too.
- corin_ 15y ago
  I think that his point was that you wouldn't walk around the office pointing at everyone with a cup of coffee and saying "that crosses the line". In reply to your original comment - for work you don't care about, I'd agree with you, but plenty of people who do stuff like this, particularly I assume when it comes to HN readers, really do care about their work. For example there's plenty of times I'll work more hours than I technically have to because I want to, and so if I were to take drugs to help that, it wouldn't neccesarily be a case of "get a new job". Incidentally I do smoke, because I enjoy it more than I care about the health risks right now.
Tossrock 15y ago
Actually, modafinil is practically tasteless, which I would say is objectively better than the bitter taste of coffee. Of course, it's possible to train yourself to enjoy that bitter taste through operant conditioning, but it's not really a "better" taste.
- gwern 15y ago
  Or you could drink tea, which is tasty, and then you also get both caffeine and theanine.
  - randallsquared 15y ago

NinetyNine 15y ago

Whether this drug does damage your health in the long run is no where near determined. I think, more interestingly, I'd ask if it were to become known that modafinil (or adderall) were harmful long term, would people still use it to gain competitive advantage. If we gain a nootropic with significant effects, at what point does it become disadvantageous not to jump on the mystery train? The 'line' that can be crossed is different for everyone.

radu_floricica 15y ago

There are plenty of mind altering substances in our diet. I eagerly await the day we can culturally accept that alcohol is an archaic drug, and we can replace it with modern alternatives that don't destroy livers and families. Modafinil could already be a modern alternative to coffee. It's definitely not perfect, but in some ways it's a lot better and it seems to be safe enough. It's far from perfect - for example I'm in the 10% who get headaches from it, so I prefer not to use it. But when a better alternative comes... I can't wait to replace caffeine.

SageRaven 15y ago
We had a great replacement for caffeine -- ephedrine. Mini-Thins were a staple of my college life. Then they banned it (I blame media hysteria), and now I'm stuck with the steeping ephedra plant leaves (known as "Mormon tea" in these parts) for the occasional late-night productivity boost.
- georgieporgie 15y ago
  My understanding is that ephedrine was one of very few drugs that had a demonstrated ability to increase metabolism and decrease hunger, at least when combined with caffeine[1]. It did so in relative safety, and the only deaths I'm aware of were due to overdose. Given the obesity problem in the US, I'm still amazed that it got banned. [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1318281 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1318281
- TruthElixirX 15y ago
  Try Bronkaid.

jakeonthemove 15y ago

Doesn't seem like that to me... Taking psychoactives is like a shortcut if you don't want to (or more likely just can't!) do it the hard way (with willpower alone). Besides, there are people who smoke and drink and still live longer than their "health-freak" peers - I still find that interesting and somewhat unfair. Also, using caffeine pills instead of coffee and recommending them to others leads to wide eyes and "you take drugs?" kind of questions - apparently, that is crossing the line, yet drinking two huge mugs of coffee in a row isn't. Human psychology, go figure :-)...

driverdan 15y ago

Everything you put in your body is a mind-altering substance. Food, coffee, beer, etc all provide different chemicals to your brain. I used to have a similar mindset to yours. I didn't use caffeine and didn't even like taking something for headaches. When I looked at it from another perspective I changed my mind. It's irrational to not take something if the benefits exceed costs. If you can take something, with benefits that outweigh the side effects, why wouldn't you? Everything has costs and benefits. Of course most people will underestimate risk and overestimate benefits so you have to do this carefully. Caffeine is a perfect example. When taken in proper dosage caffeine is beneficial with almost no side effects. The biggest side effect is addiction which isn't much of a problem with its availability and is easy to overcome.

Dn_Ab 15y ago

Do you consume sugar, vitamins or oxygen? Have you ever inhaled Nitrogen Oxide or maybe stood near a car while its engine was on? Nevermind. This concern of long term health is reducible to: what effect does taking this action have on my probability of living for X more years at present functioning or better. Notice that merely being alive negatively impacts this, while when you are alive positively impacts the odds. Being sedentary and sitting for most of your day affects the probability very negatively. Is sitting most of your day worse for you than taking modafinil daily? I suspect being sedentary is far worse for you. Or another, we can compare the effects of modafinil with getting into a car on a similar basis. With some basic knowledge of brain chemistry, claimed effects of the drug, understanding of placebo effect (~occurs in 1 in 3 or consider: drug OR Expectation/placebo Inferior to Drug AND Expectation), the drug's statistics, poor methodology in medical statistics and years of drug availability you can form a decent prior. Based on my prior, taking modafinil is certainly not more lethal or less healthy than getting in a car and being near its fumes. So fear of health effects without any reasonable basis are not a rational argument to me. The supposed strong adverse effects? This is an argument for more understanding of how metabolisms and bodies differ, I have a confirmed strong allergy to nuts for example. Peanuts are much more dangerous to me than modafinil. Yet I do not take modafinil. Not based on some unsubstantiated reverence for default biochemistry but instead on reasoned arguments. Its effects seem like they would impact creative thinking negatively. Furthermore, it is expensive and does not appear to have superior effects beyond being less addictive, a smoother delivery and a safer high dose cardiovascular profile than caffeine [1]. That is, modafinil does not appear to be any better at keeping you awake or focused than caffeine. Similarly, I do not take caffeine because of its dependency forming nature and while it appears to boost working memory, enough studies indicate it antagonizes hippocampal function [2] to motivate me to minimize caffeine intake to every few weeks or less, as necessary. The mechanisms for modafinil are different so we can't expect all effects to be the same as caffeine. But it too seems to effect some improvement in working memory - most noticeable when the individual is lower performing [3] but according to [4] modafinil does show some negative effects on long term memory processes situated at the prefrontal cortex. in rats. Remember though, just because something appears in a medical journal doesn't make it true or accurate, especially when done on animal models or cell cultures. Nonetheless, the benefits in contrast with monetary costs and minute risks make modafinil not worth it and caffeine a very irregular thing for me. Notice that I am not attacking your reluctance to take modafinil but rather, your opinion seems to be based on a nebulous definition of what a drug is and an assumption that the brain's architecture is optimal and any attempt to alter it will definitely be negative. See also - Sulbutiamine. A vitamin B1 dimer. [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11862356 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11862356 [2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19217915 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19217915 [3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15221200 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15221200 [4] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20800665 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20800665