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There are some things that make this less black and white though. 1. If most work in office and one is constant WFH, they will almost always feel more distant

There are some things that make this less black and white though. 1. If most work in office and one is constant WFH, they will almost always feel more distant and excluded. 2. Some folks want to work from home, but when they do, their performance and quality will tank, like immediately. But they arent necessarily self aware enough to see its not working. I think a place like this (Hacker News) is chock full of self-motivated higher achievers that are generally well suited for independant work from home and can overcome some of the negatives. But the reality is, there are LOADS of folks, especially in tech that arent that way, like at all.

drewcoo 3y ago
If #2 (performance problem) is real, how is it measured? If it can be measured, it can be addressed. Presumably that's what would happen in-office. If it can't be measured, maybe it's not real.
- croutonwagon 3y ago
  Well yes of course. Its measured in quality of work, deadlines missed, projects stalled Week over Week, projects/upgrades that have basic steps missed that cause break/fix engagements etc. etc. And on the whole those things are higher with many of my remote staff than on-prem. Its all tracked in Jira. Also some jobs have ebs and flows of work and not everything is measured in binary pass/fail ways. And there are times when you need someone to engage even when it’s not traditionally busy. I have had my remote employees tell me things when a "fire"/break-fix event starts and we call to engage during business hours often when that employee has been online all day to that point but now needs to be in a position to suddenly collaborate or share their screen. "Power just went out" "I am in the car" "Internet is out" (we pay for their internet AND a mifi) "My kids is sick" Never gotten any of that from someone in office, worst case I have to grab them from the breakroom or they are clear cut out with a sick kid or helping their wife. Or they walk up unprompted and say they have to leave to deal with wife or kids. Those examples where a small sample and werent that, they werent unprompted my kid is sick i need to take the day they were said once something was assigned or they are asked to engage. Peers have had similar where their direct reports are awol and they start getting texts from constituents saying “have you seen or heard from so and so, it’s been hours” Again, I have some that are NEVER a problem and even more productive in the office. I totally support that. But since COVID I would say thats only been about 25% of my direct reports. It’s certainly not the majority. Some have, unfortunately, been let go as a result. Unfortunately Executive leadership is seeing this in the non-tech divisions too and are now mandating less remote work. My point of the original comment is to point out that the folks here may have a bit of bias as it tends to have very highly motivated folks that may even be more productive when given a wide berth. I do that too with the folks that can manage it. But on the whole those are not the majority and arguably even exceptions to the rule and its those that are abusing this that are causing it to become policies to return to the office. One of my takeaways from COVID is that many adults dont have the self-discipline or self-motivation to be fully remote 100% or even 40%. Again not everyone but many/most.
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    > But since COVID I would say thats only been about 25% of my direct reports. It’s certainly not the majority. Some have, unfortunately, been let go as a result. Well, I'd say it's good. Remote work also requires commitment and responsibility. If the excuses are feeble and are always the same then, well... > Unfortunately Executive leadership is seeing this in the non-tech divisions too and are now mandating less remote work. Yeah, see above. It is important to reinforce that remote is not a "free for all". Sure, everybody goes in an errand once in a while, but productivity/meeting attendance etc is needed
    - croutonwagon 3y ago
      Yeah agree. On a personal level my executives have full trust in me. So I get a wide berth myself to run my department as needed. Including making exceptions to the policy. I wish people wouldn’t be on the take with stuff like this. I wish more were dedicated to their craft as lifelong learning too. But it is what it is.

drewcoo 3y ago

If #2 (performance problem) is real, how is it measured? If it can be measured, it can be addressed. Presumably that's what would happen in-office. If it can't be measured, maybe it's not real.

croutonwagon 3y ago
Well yes of course. Its measured in quality of work, deadlines missed, projects stalled Week over Week, projects/upgrades that have basic steps missed that cause break/fix engagements etc. etc. And on the whole those things are higher with many of my remote staff than on-prem. Its all tracked in Jira. Also some jobs have ebs and flows of work and not everything is measured in binary pass/fail ways. And there are times when you need someone to engage even when it’s not traditionally busy. I have had my remote employees tell me things when a "fire"/break-fix event starts and we call to engage during business hours often when that employee has been online all day to that point but now needs to be in a position to suddenly collaborate or share their screen. "Power just went out" "I am in the car" "Internet is out" (we pay for their internet AND a mifi) "My kids is sick" Never gotten any of that from someone in office, worst case I have to grab them from the breakroom or they are clear cut out with a sick kid or helping their wife. Or they walk up unprompted and say they have to leave to deal with wife or kids. Those examples where a small sample and werent that, they werent unprompted my kid is sick i need to take the day they were said once something was assigned or they are asked to engage. Peers have had similar where their direct reports are awol and they start getting texts from constituents saying “have you seen or heard from so and so, it’s been hours” Again, I have some that are NEVER a problem and even more productive in the office. I totally support that. But since COVID I would say thats only been about 25% of my direct reports. It’s certainly not the majority. Some have, unfortunately, been let go as a result. Unfortunately Executive leadership is seeing this in the non-tech divisions too and are now mandating less remote work. My point of the original comment is to point out that the folks here may have a bit of bias as it tends to have very highly motivated folks that may even be more productive when given a wide berth. I do that too with the folks that can manage it. But on the whole those are not the majority and arguably even exceptions to the rule and its those that are abusing this that are causing it to become policies to return to the office. One of my takeaways from COVID is that many adults dont have the self-discipline or self-motivation to be fully remote 100% or even 40%. Again not everyone but many/most.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  > But since COVID I would say thats only been about 25% of my direct reports. It’s certainly not the majority. Some have, unfortunately, been let go as a result. Well, I'd say it's good. Remote work also requires commitment and responsibility. If the excuses are feeble and are always the same then, well... > Unfortunately Executive leadership is seeing this in the non-tech divisions too and are now mandating less remote work. Yeah, see above. It is important to reinforce that remote is not a "free for all". Sure, everybody goes in an errand once in a while, but productivity/meeting attendance etc is needed
  - croutonwagon 3y ago
    Yeah agree. On a personal level my executives have full trust in me. So I get a wide berth myself to run my department as needed. Including making exceptions to the policy. I wish people wouldn’t be on the take with stuff like this. I wish more were dedicated to their craft as lifelong learning too. But it is what it is.