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If by "public transportation" we restrict ourselves to short-range metropolitan services, as used for commuting, all else being equal then the answer is no. T

If by "public transportation" we restrict ourselves to short-range metropolitan services, as used for commuting, all else being equal then the answer is no. The reason for this "no" depends on whether we're talking about an area where public transport is highly developed (e.g. most urban areas of Western Europe and Japan) or areas in which it is underfunded and underdeveloped and is mostly seen as transport for poor people (e.g. most of the USA except NYC). In the case of developed public transportation the answer is no, because simply adding first class would decrease capacity, which at rush hour is already at its limits. Hence, while a first class may attract a few new users, it would necessarily decrease the overall capacity of the system resulting in fewer users overall. In the case of underdeveloped transportation, the answer is also no. The reason is that simply adding a first class to an insufficiently planned and inefficient network would still be little more than a more comfortable alternative for the less poor users to use said inefficient and insufficiently planned network through the city. In other words, the only people who would use it were those who were already doing so, be it out of principle (environmentalism), necessity (foreign students) or convenience (the bus just happens to be the perfect route to work and they can read a book on it), but who can actually afford this newly introduced first class. So, no net gain in terms of users. If you want to increase the number of users of public transportation you don't need first class. You need more capacity and better and more efficient networks.

amichail 3y ago
Wouldn't adding more expensive classes provide funding to increase capacity?
- atoav 3y ago
  Public transport shouldn't be treated as a simple commodity. Having good public transport increases the land value, decreases maintenance costs for roads, increases revenues for local shops, decreases polution and noise and the follow up health care costs and so on. So a public transport service can be year after year in the red, while hollistically generating a ton of value for everybody in the city. In my eyes the ig orance toward rhese other benefits is a shortcoming of the neoliberal ideas that have been popular over the past decades. Sure you can make a public transport company more financially viable by cutting services, but that comes with a hidden cost elsewhere. The goal should be to have public transport so good, reliable and clean that people won't even feel a need for a business class. Maybe this is my bias as someone who had the pleasure of growing up in the alps with very good public transport systems, but hey, why not.
  - angmarsbane 3y ago
    Public transit is like Costco's rotisserie chicken. Costco takes a loss on the chicken because it gets people in the door spending on higher margin products. Local governments should take a loss on public transit because it enriches the economy around it by connecting workers with employers, and shoppers of all ages and levels of mobility/independence with business.
- Mordisquitos 3y ago
  At the level of funding needed to increase the capacity of metropolitan services, the possible additional income from more expensive classes is negligible. Consider that public transportation is almost always subsidised, hence current tickets are already well below the cost of a trip. This is why many transport services offer cheap season tickets for residents, while making some additional cash (but still well below cost) from infrequent users such as tourists. At most, maybe some kind of new bus services which were "first class only" could be self-sustaining, but only at a very high premium which would make them ridiculously expensive and still barely worth it for anyone.
dagmx 3y ago
To add to your list, I think cities need better options for last mile transport. A big issue with public transit is that it gets you to the ballpark of where you want to go but your commute from there might still be lengthy enough that you need to call an Uber anyway. A lot of cities tend to have really great main trunk transit, but things get really sparse coming off of the trunks. Having better options for spreading out from the trunks would really help
- warning26 3y ago
  The “last mile” problem you mention isn’t really a transit problem, it’s an urban design problem. In a properly designed area, anywhere you’d likely want to go would be walkable from a transit stop. This is often non-obvious to people who grew up in car-centric areas, where everything is necessarily spaced exceedingly far apart to make room for parking.
  - dagmx 3y ago
    I think it’s both, because I see it as chicken and egg. Good urban design goes hand in hand with good transit route designs. Often one ends up having to accommodate the flaws in the other.
  - politelemon 3y ago
    You just made me appreciate London city's design, I usually get to where I need and then walk from 1 to 20 minutes. I appreciate the chance to walk as it's often nice and leafy. I will stop taking it for granted.
- turtlebits 3y ago
  Hong Kong has minibuses, which are smaller in size and make more frequent shorter loops. Not sure how viable they are in less dense cities.
  - contingencies 3y ago
    Much of Africa also, eg. in Tunisia they are known as louage and constitute the primary form of public transport. In mainland China they are called "breadvans" (面包车).
sam2426679 3y ago
It's worth pointing out that Japan does have business/first class on some of its trains. Presumably more people are willing to take it, or they simply make more $ per head.
- Retric 3y ago
  Amtrak also has multiple levels of tickets/service as do some US ferries. I don’t think that’s quite what they are proposing, but rather a step up in terms of service and convenience.
- Larrikin 3y ago
  It's not worth pointing out because those only exist on the shinkansen and routes where you could theoretically be commuting for hours. Business class exist for people that travel for work already, you can use a plane or Amtrak. I'm sure there are workers in Japan who are using it daily, but having to be on the train for six hours in a green card everyday is not a hell worth recreating anywhere else.
mrkeen 3y ago
> In the case of developed public transportation the answer is no, because simply adding first class would decrease capacity. But capacity is a problem of the roads, not the busses themselves. You don't need to squeeze more people into the same amount of bus space, you need to get more 1-person-in-SUVs off the road, so more busses will fit on the road.
- IceSentry 3y ago
  Maybe I'm just biased, but I assumed they were talking about trains and metros which aren't affected by traffic.
  - Mordisquitos 3y ago
    Yes, you are right: I was mostly thinking of trains and metro systems. In any case though, the argument still applies to buses. Adding a new "first class" without increasing the bus fleet would decrease passenger capacity — and if the bus fleet were to be extended, then introducing a first class would be redundant anyway given that the greater passenger capacity would be enough to increase passenger numbers by itself.
onos 3y ago
I have heard the bay area bart is in danger of going insolvent. It is both developed and under utilized. Given widespread safety and cleanliness concerns, I do wonder if a form of first class would raise use. However I imagine that’s a nonstarter there for cultural reasons.
Justsignedup 3y ago
I think nyc used to be an outlook of the subway being for everyone but now its Busses for the poor Subway for the poor Uber for everyone else. Maybe express busses. The reality is that the subway system is not getting more reliable to a point where my daughter has a harder time getting to school than I did just due to train reroutes and delays daily. In the US the subway is not seen as an ideal and reliable transportation, even with new York having the best one in the US. I visited London 10nyears ago and then went back to new york. Was so disappointed the moment I stepped onto the train platform.

amichail 3y ago

Wouldn't adding more expensive classes provide funding to increase capacity?

atoav 3y ago
Public transport shouldn't be treated as a simple commodity. Having good public transport increases the land value, decreases maintenance costs for roads, increases revenues for local shops, decreases polution and noise and the follow up health care costs and so on. So a public transport service can be year after year in the red, while hollistically generating a ton of value for everybody in the city. In my eyes the ig orance toward rhese other benefits is a shortcoming of the neoliberal ideas that have been popular over the past decades. Sure you can make a public transport company more financially viable by cutting services, but that comes with a hidden cost elsewhere. The goal should be to have public transport so good, reliable and clean that people won't even feel a need for a business class. Maybe this is my bias as someone who had the pleasure of growing up in the alps with very good public transport systems, but hey, why not.
- angmarsbane 3y ago
  Public transit is like Costco's rotisserie chicken. Costco takes a loss on the chicken because it gets people in the door spending on higher margin products. Local governments should take a loss on public transit because it enriches the economy around it by connecting workers with employers, and shoppers of all ages and levels of mobility/independence with business.
Mordisquitos 3y ago
At the level of funding needed to increase the capacity of metropolitan services, the possible additional income from more expensive classes is negligible. Consider that public transportation is almost always subsidised, hence current tickets are already well below the cost of a trip. This is why many transport services offer cheap season tickets for residents, while making some additional cash (but still well below cost) from infrequent users such as tourists. At most, maybe some kind of new bus services which were "first class only" could be self-sustaining, but only at a very high premium which would make them ridiculously expensive and still barely worth it for anyone.

dagmx 3y ago

To add to your list, I think cities need better options for last mile transport. A big issue with public transit is that it gets you to the ballpark of where you want to go but your commute from there might still be lengthy enough that you need to call an Uber anyway. A lot of cities tend to have really great main trunk transit, but things get really sparse coming off of the trunks. Having better options for spreading out from the trunks would really help

warning26 3y ago
The “last mile” problem you mention isn’t really a transit problem, it’s an urban design problem. In a properly designed area, anywhere you’d likely want to go would be walkable from a transit stop. This is often non-obvious to people who grew up in car-centric areas, where everything is necessarily spaced exceedingly far apart to make room for parking.
- dagmx 3y ago
  I think it’s both, because I see it as chicken and egg. Good urban design goes hand in hand with good transit route designs. Often one ends up having to accommodate the flaws in the other.
- politelemon 3y ago
  You just made me appreciate London city's design, I usually get to where I need and then walk from 1 to 20 minutes. I appreciate the chance to walk as it's often nice and leafy. I will stop taking it for granted.
turtlebits 3y ago
Hong Kong has minibuses, which are smaller in size and make more frequent shorter loops. Not sure how viable they are in less dense cities.
- contingencies 3y ago
  Much of Africa also, eg. in Tunisia they are known as louage and constitute the primary form of public transport. In mainland China they are called "breadvans" (面包车).

sam2426679 3y ago

It's worth pointing out that Japan does have business/first class on some of its trains. Presumably more people are willing to take it, or they simply make more $ per head.

Retric 3y ago
Amtrak also has multiple levels of tickets/service as do some US ferries. I don’t think that’s quite what they are proposing, but rather a step up in terms of service and convenience.
Larrikin 3y ago
It's not worth pointing out because those only exist on the shinkansen and routes where you could theoretically be commuting for hours. Business class exist for people that travel for work already, you can use a plane or Amtrak. I'm sure there are workers in Japan who are using it daily, but having to be on the train for six hours in a green card everyday is not a hell worth recreating anywhere else.

mrkeen 3y ago

> In the case of developed public transportation the answer is no, because simply adding first class would decrease capacity. But capacity is a problem of the roads, not the busses themselves. You don't need to squeeze more people into the same amount of bus space, you need to get more 1-person-in-SUVs off the road, so more busses will fit on the road.

IceSentry 3y ago
Maybe I'm just biased, but I assumed they were talking about trains and metros which aren't affected by traffic.
- Mordisquitos 3y ago
  Yes, you are right: I was mostly thinking of trains and metro systems. In any case though, the argument still applies to buses. Adding a new "first class" without increasing the bus fleet would decrease passenger capacity — and if the bus fleet were to be extended, then introducing a first class would be redundant anyway given that the greater passenger capacity would be enough to increase passenger numbers by itself.

onos 3y ago

I have heard the bay area bart is in danger of going insolvent. It is both developed and under utilized. Given widespread safety and cleanliness concerns, I do wonder if a form of first class would raise use. However I imagine that’s a nonstarter there for cultural reasons.

Justsignedup 3y ago

I think nyc used to be an outlook of the subway being for everyone but now its Busses for the poor Subway for the poor Uber for everyone else. Maybe express busses. The reality is that the subway system is not getting more reliable to a point where my daughter has a harder time getting to school than I did just due to train reroutes and delays daily. In the US the subway is not seen as an ideal and reliable transportation, even with new York having the best one in the US. I visited London 10nyears ago and then went back to new york. Was so disappointed the moment I stepped onto the train platform.