4 ms·

Ask HN: Would more people take public transportation if it had business class?

22 points by amichail 3y ago

Why do airplanes have multiple classes but not public transportation?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Anon_Forever 3y ago
Many train lines across the world do have the concept of classes. First class trains have more room and nicer amenities.
- jjgreen 3y ago
  Long ago, even 3rd class; to "persuade" people not to use it, the rail companies took to spreading soot in those compartments https://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/comments/soot_bag_system https://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/comments/soot_bag_system
arek_nawo 3y ago
I see at least 1st and 2nd class very often in longer-range public transport, like trains. That said, I don't think the lack of higher class options is the reason why people don't use public transport. Some other reasons I could think of: - People (especially once they get used to it), might prefer to travel alone or with people they know (compared to strangers); - For some, public transport can feel limiting, as you're bound to a limited schedule and predestined routes; - Public transport can't and won't satisfy all the needs all travellers have, due to reasons above and others;
- maxmouchet 3y ago
  Anectodally, Paris metro used to have two classes: https://www.messynessychic.com/2014/12/04/that-time-the-paris-metro-was-segregated-by-a-class-system/ https://www.messynessychic.com/2014/12/04/that-time-the-pari...
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
Yes. Comfort, security and services definitely limit public transport’s appeal. Consider the difference, in New York, between taking a ferry and the subway. Similarly, I can recline and nap on an Uber from San Francisco. Not so on the Caltrain.
- dagmx 3y ago
  Depends when on the Caltrain. During rush hour? Definitely not but I started offsetting my commute by even a half hour and the Caltrain was usually pretty empty, enough to stretch out and close my eyes. I’d befriended the operators/conductors on my routes and they’d always tell me when there was a nice open spot somewhere too during rush hour. But I do agree with your point that the comfort did leave something to want for. That, and security. Napping on public transit is an easy way to get pick pocketed.
Mordisquitos 3y ago
If by "public transportation" we restrict ourselves to short-range metropolitan services, as used for commuting, all else being equal then the answer is no. The reason for this "no" depends on whether we're talking about an area where public transport is highly developed (e.g. most urban areas of Western Europe and Japan) or areas in which it is underfunded and underdeveloped and is mostly seen as transport for poor people (e.g. most of the USA except NYC). In the case of developed public transportation the answer is no, because simply adding first class would decrease capacity, which at rush hour is already at its limits. Hence, while a first class may attract a few new users, it would necessarily decrease the overall capacity of the system resulting in fewer users overall. In the case of underdeveloped transportation, the answer is also no. The reason is that simply adding a first class to an insufficiently planned and inefficient network would still be little more than a more comfortable alternative for the less poor users to use said inefficient and insufficiently planned network through the city. In other words, the only people who would use it were those who were already doing so, be it out of principle (environmentalism), necessity (foreign students) or convenience (the bus just happens to be the perfect route to work and they can read a book on it), but who can actually afford this newly introduced first class. So, no net gain in terms of users. If you want to increase the number of users of public transportation you don't need first class. You need more capacity and better and more efficient networks.
- amichail 3y ago
  Wouldn't adding more expensive classes provide funding to increase capacity?
  - atoav 3y ago
    Public transport shouldn't be treated as a simple commodity. Having good public transport increases the land value, decreases maintenance costs for roads, increases revenues for local shops, decreases polution and noise and the follow up health care costs and so on. So a public transport service can be year after year in the red, while hollistically generating a ton of value for everybody in the city. In my eyes the ig orance toward rhese other benefits is a shortcoming of the neoliberal ideas that have been popular over the past decades. Sure you can make a public transport company more financially viable by cutting services, but that comes with a hidden cost elsewhere. The goal should be to have public transport so good, reliable and clean that people won't even feel a need for a business class. Maybe this is my bias as someone who had the pleasure of growing up in the alps with very good public transport systems, but hey, why not.
willio58 3y ago
I would take public transportation if it meant not having to take buses only. Without trams or metros within cities or fast trains between cities, there’s really no benefit to me using those services over my car (unfortunately) Buses are cheap for cities so they’re common, but I’ll just say it, they suck. Without dedicated bud lanes they get stuck in traffic, they’re slow, etc.
- Shawnj2 3y ago
  Increased bus lanes would also be a viable option. The problem with public transit in most of the US is that busses get stuck in the same traffic as cars do but have less stops, so people will drive as it is the fastest possible transportation option. Bus lanes solve this problem for the cost of a can of paint
haarts 3y ago
All trains in the Netherlands have a first class option. Mostly used by business people.
veave 3y ago
[flagged]
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - showdeddd 3y ago
    [flagged]
dieselgate 3y ago
Others have mentioned this but a lot of places already have similar “class” concepts. To broaden the scope of this a bit CDMX has women (and children?) only metro cars - which seems to be confidence inspiring for women who use them. I’ve also taken a sleeper bus from Scotland to England which had seats along with cots for the overnight ride. Additionally Amtrak in the US has a few different offerings. I know the scope of this is probably more bus/train related but in my opinion the people who would want a true “business class” might take an Uber/Lyft. My senior manager at works takes the public bus to commute to this office - just another data point.
- zo1 3y ago
  Interesting, are these "women-only" cars usually at the front or back of the trains?
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    That seems like that would open up an entirely new can of worms, at least in the US.
    - dieselgate 3y ago
      Maybe but most public transport systems are local and could see it being a success in certain locations
  - dieselgate 3y ago
    This linked paper [1] is in Spanish but believe it says to be the first two cars of multiple lines, and to accommodate passengers under 12. Edit: looked it up because don’t remember from personal experience 1. https://www.elsoldemexico.com.mx/metropoli/cdmx/vagones-para-mujeres-metro-exclusivos-para-viajar-seguras-4109298.html/amp https://www.elsoldemexico.com.mx/metropoli/cdmx/vagones-para...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
petesergeant 3y ago
In Dubai, you can get a Gold card for the metro, which allows you to sit in a quieter carriage with more seats at the front of the train. Knowing I'll probably get a seat when I travel, I take the metro more often than I would otherwise.
itake 3y ago
In the usa, the transit needs to be faster. Public transit is 1.2-2x longer than driving.
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  In those places where it's even a viable option!
barbariangrunge 3y ago
My wife would have used public transit more if the downtown train stations weren’t crawling with aggressive drugged out people harassing people at all hours; add that she used to get off work late at night, and it wasn’t safe for her So, there’s a starting point. Let’s stop letting thugs who reek of Lysol on the train wander up to a stranger to steal their hat off their head without consequence (actual incident I saw last time I was in the train)
- wizofaus 3y ago
  Why should having enough money to pay for a 1st class ticket be the only way to avoid being harrassed by "aggressive drugged-out people"?? Surely at a minimum PT should guarantee that for all passengers.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  I'm hardly liberal myself, but what sort of policy is it that you imagine could change this at this late date? Cops could be directed to arresting such people aggressively, as their primary duty. Prosecution could be greased such that they aren't getting back out pre-trial... at least temporarily. Laws might even be modified such that they are convicted. But at the end of the day, you need to warehouse them somewhere if you're going to keep them off the train and from stealing hats off people's heads. And in the places where this is the biggest problem (California), they're constantly running into prison capacity issues that see people released early. All this remains true even if your jackbooted enough to be willing to go through with this crap. There are some other fundamental issues that would need to be solved first, and I'm not even certain those have been identified.
throwaway22032 3y ago
I would take public transport far more if it just had conductors in addition to the metro train/bus driver. The general public don't want to confront degenerates (kids vaping on the bus, loud people, people insulting others with slurs, creeps etc). Particularly late at night I don't feel comfortable on the bus and I'm a fairly imposing guy. If I were a young woman I don't think I'd want to get night buses at all. There is an undertone to the whole public transport conversation that inevitably tends towards people thinking that you're bigoted (racist/classist/whatever) if you don't welcome antisocial behaviour, which anyone who actually had a poor upbringing will tell you is complete bullshit. There is no excuse for behaving like an animal in public.
intellectronica 3y ago
Ehrm ... here in Switzerland trains do indeed have a 2nd and 1st class.
JimtheCoder 3y ago
I am probably wrong, but aren't airlines mostly privately held companies (for profit) while public transportation is owned by municipalities? The whole "government owned" and "multi class" sort of draws some very loose parallels to racial segregation of the past to me...something that was fought against so we could all get equal treatment. When you add on public funding and special interest groups, this just seems like a total no go. In the public sphere, the best, most effective solution is rarely the one chosen... I am just thinking out loud...
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  Amtrak has sleeper cars. And every public passenger train system I know of has classes, because otherwise you lose ridership.
sshine 3y ago
In Switzerland, trains do have first-class. The train system in Switzerland is wonderful, so I’d settle for regular class. I would not drive a car there. I forgot my bag on the train once. I reported it and they emailed me on the same day confirming they had found it and asked if I wanted it mailed to me, or I wanted to pick it up at a station of my choice. That service cost €20, but because I had the commuter card, I only paid €10.
brigadier132 3y ago
Yes. There is a train in Florida called briteline I like to take and it has seat upgrades and I take it all the time. It's very clean and the service is very good. I do not take subways or busses.
kj4211cash 3y ago
In the US, you probably wouldn’t collect enough from the first class passengers to pay for their trips let alone subsidize the trips of others. BART and the DC Metro famously serve lots of wealthy people, with a pretty mediocre standard of service, and aren’t close to breaking even. Do we really want to subsidize rich people traveling?
wiihack 3y ago
There are regional trains in Germany where this exists. Even if second class is completely full, first class remains mostly empty. It feels like a waste of space, as the downside for the general public is much greater than any potential gains for first-class travelers and train operators.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
calyth2018 3y ago
The MTR in HK heading to Lo Wu / Lok Ma Chau has a first class section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Rail_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Rail_line It doesn't increase public transportation use. People in North America don't take public transit because: - it doesn't take them to where they need to go; - it doesn't take them to their destination timely relative to a car; and/or - it doesn't have frequent enough service to not get bored to death, baked into heat stroke, or frozen to death in -30C weather, on a Saturday early evening "Business class" is just a lip stick on a pig.

22 points by amichail 3y ago

Why do airplanes have multiple classes but not public transportation?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Anon_Forever 3y ago

Many train lines across the world do have the concept of classes. First class trains have more room and nicer amenities.

jjgreen 3y ago
Long ago, even 3rd class; to "persuade" people not to use it, the rail companies took to spreading soot in those compartments https://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/comments/soot_bag_system https://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/comments/soot_bag_system

arek_nawo 3y ago

I see at least 1st and 2nd class very often in longer-range public transport, like trains. That said, I don't think the lack of higher class options is the reason why people don't use public transport. Some other reasons I could think of: - People (especially once they get used to it), might prefer to travel alone or with people they know (compared to strangers); - For some, public transport can feel limiting, as you're bound to a limited schedule and predestined routes; - Public transport can't and won't satisfy all the needs all travellers have, due to reasons above and others;

maxmouchet 3y ago
Anectodally, Paris metro used to have two classes: https://www.messynessychic.com/2014/12/04/that-time-the-paris-metro-was-segregated-by-a-class-system/ https://www.messynessychic.com/2014/12/04/that-time-the-pari...

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

Yes. Comfort, security and services definitely limit public transport’s appeal. Consider the difference, in New York, between taking a ferry and the subway. Similarly, I can recline and nap on an Uber from San Francisco. Not so on the Caltrain.

dagmx 3y ago
Depends when on the Caltrain. During rush hour? Definitely not but I started offsetting my commute by even a half hour and the Caltrain was usually pretty empty, enough to stretch out and close my eyes. I’d befriended the operators/conductors on my routes and they’d always tell me when there was a nice open spot somewhere too during rush hour. But I do agree with your point that the comfort did leave something to want for. That, and security. Napping on public transit is an easy way to get pick pocketed.

Mordisquitos 3y ago

If by "public transportation" we restrict ourselves to short-range metropolitan services, as used for commuting, all else being equal then the answer is no. The reason for this "no" depends on whether we're talking about an area where public transport is highly developed (e.g. most urban areas of Western Europe and Japan) or areas in which it is underfunded and underdeveloped and is mostly seen as transport for poor people (e.g. most of the USA except NYC). In the case of developed public transportation the answer is no, because simply adding first class would decrease capacity, which at rush hour is already at its limits. Hence, while a first class may attract a few new users, it would necessarily decrease the overall capacity of the system resulting in fewer users overall. In the case of underdeveloped transportation, the answer is also no. The reason is that simply adding a first class to an insufficiently planned and inefficient network would still be little more than a more comfortable alternative for the less poor users to use said inefficient and insufficiently planned network through the city. In other words, the only people who would use it were those who were already doing so, be it out of principle (environmentalism), necessity (foreign students) or convenience (the bus just happens to be the perfect route to work and they can read a book on it), but who can actually afford this newly introduced first class. So, no net gain in terms of users. If you want to increase the number of users of public transportation you don't need first class. You need more capacity and better and more efficient networks.

amichail 3y ago
Wouldn't adding more expensive classes provide funding to increase capacity?
- atoav 3y ago
  Public transport shouldn't be treated as a simple commodity. Having good public transport increases the land value, decreases maintenance costs for roads, increases revenues for local shops, decreases polution and noise and the follow up health care costs and so on. So a public transport service can be year after year in the red, while hollistically generating a ton of value for everybody in the city. In my eyes the ig orance toward rhese other benefits is a shortcoming of the neoliberal ideas that have been popular over the past decades. Sure you can make a public transport company more financially viable by cutting services, but that comes with a hidden cost elsewhere. The goal should be to have public transport so good, reliable and clean that people won't even feel a need for a business class. Maybe this is my bias as someone who had the pleasure of growing up in the alps with very good public transport systems, but hey, why not.

willio58 3y ago

I would take public transportation if it meant not having to take buses only. Without trams or metros within cities or fast trains between cities, there’s really no benefit to me using those services over my car (unfortunately) Buses are cheap for cities so they’re common, but I’ll just say it, they suck. Without dedicated bud lanes they get stuck in traffic, they’re slow, etc.

Shawnj2 3y ago
Increased bus lanes would also be a viable option. The problem with public transit in most of the US is that busses get stuck in the same traffic as cars do but have less stops, so people will drive as it is the fastest possible transportation option. Bus lanes solve this problem for the cost of a can of paint

haarts 3y ago

All trains in the Netherlands have a first class option. Mostly used by business people.

veave 3y ago

[flagged]

pavel_lishin 3y ago
[flagged]
- showdeddd 3y ago
  [flagged]

dieselgate 3y ago

Others have mentioned this but a lot of places already have similar “class” concepts. To broaden the scope of this a bit CDMX has women (and children?) only metro cars - which seems to be confidence inspiring for women who use them. I’ve also taken a sleeper bus from Scotland to England which had seats along with cots for the overnight ride. Additionally Amtrak in the US has a few different offerings. I know the scope of this is probably more bus/train related but in my opinion the people who would want a true “business class” might take an Uber/Lyft. My senior manager at works takes the public bus to commute to this office - just another data point.

zo1 3y ago
Interesting, are these "women-only" cars usually at the front or back of the trains?
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  That seems like that would open up an entirely new can of worms, at least in the US.
  - dieselgate 3y ago
    Maybe but most public transport systems are local and could see it being a success in certain locations
- dieselgate 3y ago
  This linked paper [1] is in Spanish but believe it says to be the first two cars of multiple lines, and to accommodate passengers under 12. Edit: looked it up because don’t remember from personal experience 1. https://www.elsoldemexico.com.mx/metropoli/cdmx/vagones-para-mujeres-metro-exclusivos-para-viajar-seguras-4109298.html/amp https://www.elsoldemexico.com.mx/metropoli/cdmx/vagones-para...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

petesergeant 3y ago

In Dubai, you can get a Gold card for the metro, which allows you to sit in a quieter carriage with more seats at the front of the train. Knowing I'll probably get a seat when I travel, I take the metro more often than I would otherwise.

itake 3y ago

In the usa, the transit needs to be faster. Public transit is 1.2-2x longer than driving.

pavel_lishin 3y ago
In those places where it's even a viable option!

barbariangrunge 3y ago

My wife would have used public transit more if the downtown train stations weren’t crawling with aggressive drugged out people harassing people at all hours; add that she used to get off work late at night, and it wasn’t safe for her So, there’s a starting point. Let’s stop letting thugs who reek of Lysol on the train wander up to a stranger to steal their hat off their head without consequence (actual incident I saw last time I was in the train)

wizofaus 3y ago
Why should having enough money to pay for a 1st class ticket be the only way to avoid being harrassed by "aggressive drugged-out people"?? Surely at a minimum PT should guarantee that for all passengers.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
I'm hardly liberal myself, but what sort of policy is it that you imagine could change this at this late date? Cops could be directed to arresting such people aggressively, as their primary duty. Prosecution could be greased such that they aren't getting back out pre-trial... at least temporarily. Laws might even be modified such that they are convicted. But at the end of the day, you need to warehouse them somewhere if you're going to keep them off the train and from stealing hats off people's heads. And in the places where this is the biggest problem (California), they're constantly running into prison capacity issues that see people released early. All this remains true even if your jackbooted enough to be willing to go through with this crap. There are some other fundamental issues that would need to be solved first, and I'm not even certain those have been identified.

throwaway22032 3y ago

I would take public transport far more if it just had conductors in addition to the metro train/bus driver. The general public don't want to confront degenerates (kids vaping on the bus, loud people, people insulting others with slurs, creeps etc). Particularly late at night I don't feel comfortable on the bus and I'm a fairly imposing guy. If I were a young woman I don't think I'd want to get night buses at all. There is an undertone to the whole public transport conversation that inevitably tends towards people thinking that you're bigoted (racist/classist/whatever) if you don't welcome antisocial behaviour, which anyone who actually had a poor upbringing will tell you is complete bullshit. There is no excuse for behaving like an animal in public.

intellectronica 3y ago

Ehrm ... here in Switzerland trains do indeed have a 2nd and 1st class.

JimtheCoder 3y ago

I am probably wrong, but aren't airlines mostly privately held companies (for profit) while public transportation is owned by municipalities? The whole "government owned" and "multi class" sort of draws some very loose parallels to racial segregation of the past to me...something that was fought against so we could all get equal treatment. When you add on public funding and special interest groups, this just seems like a total no go. In the public sphere, the best, most effective solution is rarely the one chosen... I am just thinking out loud...

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
Amtrak has sleeper cars. And every public passenger train system I know of has classes, because otherwise you lose ridership.

sshine 3y ago

In Switzerland, trains do have first-class. The train system in Switzerland is wonderful, so I’d settle for regular class. I would not drive a car there. I forgot my bag on the train once. I reported it and they emailed me on the same day confirming they had found it and asked if I wanted it mailed to me, or I wanted to pick it up at a station of my choice. That service cost €20, but because I had the commuter card, I only paid €10.

brigadier132 3y ago

Yes. There is a train in Florida called briteline I like to take and it has seat upgrades and I take it all the time. It's very clean and the service is very good. I do not take subways or busses.

kj4211cash 3y ago

In the US, you probably wouldn’t collect enough from the first class passengers to pay for their trips let alone subsidize the trips of others. BART and the DC Metro famously serve lots of wealthy people, with a pretty mediocre standard of service, and aren’t close to breaking even. Do we really want to subsidize rich people traveling?

wiihack 3y ago

There are regional trains in Germany where this exists. Even if second class is completely full, first class remains mostly empty. It feels like a waste of space, as the downside for the general public is much greater than any potential gains for first-class travelers and train operators.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

calyth2018 3y ago

The MTR in HK heading to Lo Wu / Lok Ma Chau has a first class section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Rail_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Rail_line It doesn't increase public transportation use. People in North America don't take public transit because: - it doesn't take them to where they need to go; - it doesn't take them to their destination timely relative to a car; and/or - it doesn't have frequent enough service to not get bored to death, baked into heat stroke, or frozen to death in -30C weather, on a Saturday early evening "Business class" is just a lip stick on a pig.