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>I was supporting my argument for hundreds of years of bureaucracy built up. I don't really understand what this means. Any country that's existed for hundreds

by foldr 3y ago

>I was supporting my argument for hundreds of years of bureaucracy built up. I don't really understand what this means. Any country that's existed for hundreds of years has bureaucracy that's built up over hundreds of years. Britain isn't an unusually bureaucratic country – quite the opposite in many respects. >Reducing support for local councils has been deeply unpopular And yet you seem to think that it's had various unspecified benefits. If so, why is it so unpopular with the general public? And what are these benefits? It's easy to cut 'waste' by cutting funding. Cut funding to zero and you'll have zero waste! Magic!

Retric 3y ago
> Any country that's existed for hundreds of years has bureaucracy that's built up over hundreds of years. Britain isn't an unusually bureaucratic country – quite the opposite in many respects. Most countries disrupt the existing bureaucracy over time, the UK is somewhat unique in how old many of it’s structures are. Tokyo and Paris are equally old cities, but their structure didn’t ossify hundreds of years ago they fundamentally changed over time. Also, there is nothing unspecified about cutting waste being beneficial. The difficult bit about cutting spending in a democracy is the unpopular nature of doing so. So, again you personally don’t like what’s going on, and at the exact same time it’s good for the long term health of the UK. Not because their doing a particularly good job, but because their doing something necessary.
- foldr 3y ago
  >There’s nothing unspecified about cutting waste being beneficial. You haven't specified who's benefitted and how. Nor have you shown that 'waste' spending has indeed gone down, either in absolute terms or as a fraction of total spending. >So, again you personally don’t like what’s going on, and at the exact same time it’s a very good thing for the long term health of the UK. How long is 'long' here? The country was in a better economic state when the Conservatives came to power in 2010. How long will we have to wait to see these long term benefits?
  - Retric 3y ago
    Continuing my last point, Tokyo went through several major disruptions over the last 200 years ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_wards_of_Tokyo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_wards_of_Tokyo > How long is ‘long’ here? Everyone’s kids is who benefits. I am talking 30-40 years, countries don’t turn around on a dime. That said from 2000 to 2010 the UK was ‘flat’ and it just dealt with COVID, but I am not blaming the people in power for either the event just how well they set the country up to improve in the future.
    - foldr 3y ago
      >Everyone’s kids is who benefits. https://www.barnardos.org.uk/news/our-news/more-children-risk-councils-forced-halve-spending-early-support https://www.barnardos.org.uk/news/our-news/more-children-ris... In any case, you are implicitly conceding that you cannot point to any tangible benefits of this government's policies in the present day. They are merely policies that you think are ideologically correct, and thus expect to have good outcomes within some very long timeframe. No idea why you are brining Tokyo into this – sorry.
      - Retric 3y ago
        I am bringing every single other country into this because it makes it obvious why the UK is failing. > cannot point to any tangible benefits How about debt/ GDP ratio that fell down to 82.8% in 2019 right before the pandemic. This trend was really easy to find 84.5, 84.3, 83.5, 82.8 (pandemic) Making longer term predictions is much harder than retroactively looking on a few backward looking and easily gamed indicators. Rather than directly looking at GDP you need to compare things like GDP per capita PPP with other countries adjusting for demographics, economic development, etc but it’s really not worth getting into with someone that’s thinking in terms of political ideology.
        foldr 3y ago
        A tangible benefit is one that’s visible to a large number of people in their daily lives. The link in my previous post details some of the many costs of cuts to local services. These will manifest as a long term drag on the UK economy, not just a blight on the lives of the affected children. You apparently assume that this damage must be worth it in order to make a particular economic statistic graph nicely. It is therefore clear which of us is in thrall to a particular political ideology. Future economic prosperity requires the current generation of children to be healthy, well educated and well adjusted members of society. Borrowing money now to ensure that this happens in future is one of the best long-term investments a government can make. The real question is not "how much are we borrowing?" but "what is the expected return on the spending enabled via borrowing?". That said, debt as a percentage of GDP is actually higher now than it was in 2010 when the Conservatives came to power! (This was also true before the pandemic.) See the chart here under the heading “Government debt”: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02812/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02... >I am bringing every single other country into this because it makes it obvious why the UK is failing. Wikipedia article on Tokyo; therefore the UK is failing. Ok. London is a prosperous and successful city. It's really not the part of the UK you'd point to if you wanted to show that the country as a whole is failing.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > Not because they’re doing a particularly good job, but because they’re doing something necessary. This is entirely fictitious. Have they reformed feudal system of leasehold that makes me the equivalent of a medieval peasant? Have they reformed the absurd planning system which takes years to approve a barn, stops British farmers from building wing turbines, stops my friend from raising a roof by 10 cm and blocks every renewable -project in the land? Have they repealed FPTP voting to have a more modern system, replaced combined sewers that dump poop on the beach? Have they reduced the number of local authorities in London, or combined parish and country councils in the countryside? No, they have not reformed any of the old systems that plague UK. Your entire argument is fanciful fantasy.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Have they gone far enough, fuck no. But credit where credit is due, they were making real progress on the UK’s debt before the pandemic. That’s exactly the kind of thing where the benefits don’t show up in the short term but is still vital for a country to prosper long term.

by foldr 3y ago

Retric 3y ago

> Any country that's existed for hundreds of years has bureaucracy that's built up over hundreds of years. Britain isn't an unusually bureaucratic country – quite the opposite in many respects. Most countries disrupt the existing bureaucracy over time, the UK is somewhat unique in how old many of it’s structures are. Tokyo and Paris are equally old cities, but their structure didn’t ossify hundreds of years ago they fundamentally changed over time. Also, there is nothing unspecified about cutting waste being beneficial. The difficult bit about cutting spending in a democracy is the unpopular nature of doing so. So, again you personally don’t like what’s going on, and at the exact same time it’s good for the long term health of the UK. Not because their doing a particularly good job, but because their doing something necessary.

foldr 3y ago
>There’s nothing unspecified about cutting waste being beneficial. You haven't specified who's benefitted and how. Nor have you shown that 'waste' spending has indeed gone down, either in absolute terms or as a fraction of total spending. >So, again you personally don’t like what’s going on, and at the exact same time it’s a very good thing for the long term health of the UK. How long is 'long' here? The country was in a better economic state when the Conservatives came to power in 2010. How long will we have to wait to see these long term benefits?
- Retric 3y ago
  Continuing my last point, Tokyo went through several major disruptions over the last 200 years ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_wards_of_Tokyo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_wards_of_Tokyo > How long is ‘long’ here? Everyone’s kids is who benefits. I am talking 30-40 years, countries don’t turn around on a dime. That said from 2000 to 2010 the UK was ‘flat’ and it just dealt with COVID, but I am not blaming the people in power for either the event just how well they set the country up to improve in the future.
  - foldr 3y ago
    >Everyone’s kids is who benefits. https://www.barnardos.org.uk/news/our-news/more-children-risk-councils-forced-halve-spending-early-support https://www.barnardos.org.uk/news/our-news/more-children-ris... In any case, you are implicitly conceding that you cannot point to any tangible benefits of this government's policies in the present day. They are merely policies that you think are ideologically correct, and thus expect to have good outcomes within some very long timeframe. No idea why you are brining Tokyo into this – sorry.
    - Retric 3y ago
      I am bringing every single other country into this because it makes it obvious why the UK is failing. > cannot point to any tangible benefits How about debt/ GDP ratio that fell down to 82.8% in 2019 right before the pandemic. This trend was really easy to find 84.5, 84.3, 83.5, 82.8 (pandemic) Making longer term predictions is much harder than retroactively looking on a few backward looking and easily gamed indicators. Rather than directly looking at GDP you need to compare things like GDP per capita PPP with other countries adjusting for demographics, economic development, etc but it’s really not worth getting into with someone that’s thinking in terms of political ideology.
      - foldr 3y ago
        A tangible benefit is one that’s visible to a large number of people in their daily lives. The link in my previous post details some of the many costs of cuts to local services. These will manifest as a long term drag on the UK economy, not just a blight on the lives of the affected children. You apparently assume that this damage must be worth it in order to make a particular economic statistic graph nicely. It is therefore clear which of us is in thrall to a particular political ideology. Future economic prosperity requires the current generation of children to be healthy, well educated and well adjusted members of society. Borrowing money now to ensure that this happens in future is one of the best long-term investments a government can make. The real question is not "how much are we borrowing?" but "what is the expected return on the spending enabled via borrowing?". That said, debt as a percentage of GDP is actually higher now than it was in 2010 when the Conservatives came to power! (This was also true before the pandemic.) See the chart here under the heading “Government debt”: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02812/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02... >I am bringing every single other country into this because it makes it obvious why the UK is failing. Wikipedia article on Tokyo; therefore the UK is failing. Ok. London is a prosperous and successful city. It's really not the part of the UK you'd point to if you wanted to show that the country as a whole is failing.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> Not because they’re doing a particularly good job, but because they’re doing something necessary. This is entirely fictitious. Have they reformed feudal system of leasehold that makes me the equivalent of a medieval peasant? Have they reformed the absurd planning system which takes years to approve a barn, stops British farmers from building wing turbines, stops my friend from raising a roof by 10 cm and blocks every renewable -project in the land? Have they repealed FPTP voting to have a more modern system, replaced combined sewers that dump poop on the beach? Have they reduced the number of local authorities in London, or combined parish and country councils in the countryside? No, they have not reformed any of the old systems that plague UK. Your entire argument is fanciful fantasy.
- Retric 3y ago
  Have they gone far enough, fuck no. But credit where credit is due, they were making real progress on the UK’s debt before the pandemic. That’s exactly the kind of thing where the benefits don’t show up in the short term but is still vital for a country to prosper long term.