3 ms·

"But Russia and China are definitely the bad guys in comparison." I agree in the case of Russia, China seems to be dovish in regard of Ukraine. "If West react

"But Russia and China are definitely the bad guys in comparison." I agree in the case of Russia, China seems to be dovish in regard of Ukraine. "If West reacted in 2008 how they react now - we could have saved 100s of thousand of people AND avoided 2 wars" I'm not sure here. My guess is Merkel and Macron were right in 2008: trying to get Ukraine and Georgia into NATO would have meant war with Russia. (actually Russia and Georgia fought a war in 2008 about South Ossetia). In my opinion Russia is the bad revisionist guy, but the politics of the West were amateurish and reckless. And in my opinion Ukraine needs a deal and it should have tried to keep Minsk 2. And I do not see this as colonial mindset, as Ukrainian I would think the same.

ajuc 3y ago
> And I do not see this as colonial mindset yes, that's usually how this works > My guess is Merkel and Macron were right in 2008: trying to get Ukraine and Georgia into NATO would have meant war with Russia Merkel just wanted cheap resources and "strategic independence" of USA. Nobody actually expected NATO vs Russia war in 2008 no matter which decision was taken. It was selfish and short-term politics, simple as that. > as Ukrainian I would think the same Ukrainians overwhelmingly disagree, but I'm sure you would be in the minority that is "right" :) You know better without actually living there after all :)
- hackandthink 3y ago
  As a Western European, I am privileged and the simplest and perhaps best thing would be to just keep my mouth shut. But I actually have an opinion and this carnage is terrible. I am against participation in the war and stand by it. Western war mongers do more harm than good, and no one should rely on them. (the political situation is very different, but it is a lesson anyway, do not trust your allies, they have their own agenda) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal
  - ajuc 3y ago
    I am Polish. Western betrayal is a popular view here, but not universal (my own opinion is that it was bad luck - the combination of underestimating new military doctrine of blitzkrieg and the rise of USSR, nobody was planning on betrayal). The plans before WW2 were for Poland to defend for several months before the help arrives. WW1 made it look realistic. Blitzkrieg made it impossible, but it's anachronistic to view it as a betrayal. They simply didn't knew. Anyway, no matter how you look at it - Poles still fought for returning to the "western Europe" after that "betrayal". Because west might "betray" you, but Russia will genocide, censor, torture and exploit you till barely anything remains. These are the choices people in Eastern Europe have to make. If West didn't joined WW2 - Holocaust would finish succesfully. Then the plan was to starve most of Slavs, keep the rest as slaves and settle German colonizers in Ukraine to feed the 3rd Reich. By now we would have Nazis control half of Europe and have nukes. Much better? Or maybe the "warmongers" had a point? Ukrainians tried to find peace with Russia since 1991. There's just no way to do it. Russia wants to annex the whole Ukraine. They openly say this on their TV. And russian occupation isn't "safe". If you participated in any patriotic organisation, if you have Ukrainian tattoo, if you were important cultural or political figure - you are on russian list and they will kill you after they occupy Ukraine. This already happens on occupied territories. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/us-claims-russia-creating-lists-of-ukrainians-to-be-killed-or-sent-to-camps-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/us-claims-russ... Ukrainians don't have a choice. And people like you make their situation worse.
    - hackandthink 3y ago
      You know the situation in Central Europe from direct experience, for me it's more abstract. I do not rule out that I am wrong and that a tolerable agreement with Russia is not possible. But then the problem of defeating a nuclear-armed state remains. The few pacifist-minded people like me are not relevant anyway. But it is relevant that the West ultimately does not want nuclear war, and also avoids sending troops. The support is enough for a long bloody war, the outcome is uncertain, I am pessimistic. I agree: this is not planned betrayal (though there is some cynicism) but may end catastrophically anyway.
_kbh_ 3y ago
> And in my opinion Ukraine needs a deal and it should have tried to keep Minsk 2. And I do not see this as colonial mindset, as Ukrainian I would think the same. Why does Ukraine need a deal? Ukraine already has at least one international agreement that Russia signed saying they would never threaten the borders of Ukraine in anyway. What is going to stop Russia from breaking any future deals, like they have broken deals in the past?. What Ukraine needs is for Russia to leave because they realise that staying in Ukraine is too devastating for their country. Evidently this the only thing Russia understands, force.
- theironhammer 3y ago
  If Canada WANTED to become a vassal state of China what do you think the Americans would do?
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > If Canada WANTED to become a vassal state of China what do you think the Americans would do? Not much, probably sanction them, cut off ties and generally cease trade. But I don’t think they’d invade, nor do I think if they did invade they would commit the horrible crimes (genocide, rape and torture of children, etc) that the Russians seem to love to do.

ajuc 3y ago

> And I do not see this as colonial mindset yes, that's usually how this works > My guess is Merkel and Macron were right in 2008: trying to get Ukraine and Georgia into NATO would have meant war with Russia Merkel just wanted cheap resources and "strategic independence" of USA. Nobody actually expected NATO vs Russia war in 2008 no matter which decision was taken. It was selfish and short-term politics, simple as that. > as Ukrainian I would think the same Ukrainians overwhelmingly disagree, but I'm sure you would be in the minority that is "right" :) You know better without actually living there after all :)

hackandthink 3y ago
As a Western European, I am privileged and the simplest and perhaps best thing would be to just keep my mouth shut. But I actually have an opinion and this carnage is terrible. I am against participation in the war and stand by it. Western war mongers do more harm than good, and no one should rely on them. (the political situation is very different, but it is a lesson anyway, do not trust your allies, they have their own agenda) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal
- ajuc 3y ago
  I am Polish. Western betrayal is a popular view here, but not universal (my own opinion is that it was bad luck - the combination of underestimating new military doctrine of blitzkrieg and the rise of USSR, nobody was planning on betrayal). The plans before WW2 were for Poland to defend for several months before the help arrives. WW1 made it look realistic. Blitzkrieg made it impossible, but it's anachronistic to view it as a betrayal. They simply didn't knew. Anyway, no matter how you look at it - Poles still fought for returning to the "western Europe" after that "betrayal". Because west might "betray" you, but Russia will genocide, censor, torture and exploit you till barely anything remains. These are the choices people in Eastern Europe have to make. If West didn't joined WW2 - Holocaust would finish succesfully. Then the plan was to starve most of Slavs, keep the rest as slaves and settle German colonizers in Ukraine to feed the 3rd Reich. By now we would have Nazis control half of Europe and have nukes. Much better? Or maybe the "warmongers" had a point? Ukrainians tried to find peace with Russia since 1991. There's just no way to do it. Russia wants to annex the whole Ukraine. They openly say this on their TV. And russian occupation isn't "safe". If you participated in any patriotic organisation, if you have Ukrainian tattoo, if you were important cultural or political figure - you are on russian list and they will kill you after they occupy Ukraine. This already happens on occupied territories. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/us-claims-russia-creating-lists-of-ukrainians-to-be-killed-or-sent-to-camps-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/us-claims-russ... Ukrainians don't have a choice. And people like you make their situation worse.
  - hackandthink 3y ago
    You know the situation in Central Europe from direct experience, for me it's more abstract. I do not rule out that I am wrong and that a tolerable agreement with Russia is not possible. But then the problem of defeating a nuclear-armed state remains. The few pacifist-minded people like me are not relevant anyway. But it is relevant that the West ultimately does not want nuclear war, and also avoids sending troops. The support is enough for a long bloody war, the outcome is uncertain, I am pessimistic. I agree: this is not planned betrayal (though there is some cynicism) but may end catastrophically anyway.

_kbh_ 3y ago

> And in my opinion Ukraine needs a deal and it should have tried to keep Minsk 2. And I do not see this as colonial mindset, as Ukrainian I would think the same. Why does Ukraine need a deal? Ukraine already has at least one international agreement that Russia signed saying they would never threaten the borders of Ukraine in anyway. What is going to stop Russia from breaking any future deals, like they have broken deals in the past?. What Ukraine needs is for Russia to leave because they realise that staying in Ukraine is too devastating for their country. Evidently this the only thing Russia understands, force.

theironhammer 3y ago
If Canada WANTED to become a vassal state of China what do you think the Americans would do?
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > If Canada WANTED to become a vassal state of China what do you think the Americans would do? Not much, probably sanction them, cut off ties and generally cease trade. But I don’t think they’d invade, nor do I think if they did invade they would commit the horrible crimes (genocide, rape and torture of children, etc) that the Russians seem to love to do.