5 ms·

For $8, Pine64 sells their similar looking Ox64 -- risc-V core, bluetooth, 64 MB SRAM, wifi, usb, 16 MB flash ... They also have a $6 model with only 16 MB SRA

For $8, Pine64 sells their similar looking Ox64 -- risc-V core, bluetooth, 64 MB SRAM, wifi, usb, 16 MB flash ... They also have a $6 model with only 16 MB SRAM version, but that one, unline the 64 MB, can't run linux. https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Ox64 https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Ox64

hutzlibu 3y ago
OT, is pinephone making some progress? I have not heard about them in quite some time, but was hoping they eventually reach the point, of offering a usable device. I guess they are still not there?
- not_your_vase 3y ago
  Define "usable". I have both Pinephone and Pinephone Pro, though I use them mostly to tinker with them (hah, I'm in the middle of compiling a new custom system image for the OG). Pro's hardware is definitely better than the original, but the software part is still very alpha. Many driver is still not mainlined, and are very buggy (especially the 4G modem/GPS...) If you ask me, the main issue is that everyone is trying to create a desktop OS for the devices, with the same flaws. Most applications are simply not optimized for mobile. And of course half of the services are Python - which is fine on desktop and server, but on a battery powered embedded device you want to save those expensive cycles... but I start to rant. PinePhones are fun (and affordable) toys if this is your thing, but it stops there. And of course the developer community likes new stuff. Pine64 just released a small mountain of new tablets, everyone is flocking in that direction.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    Well, by "usable" I mean a phone, that I can use as a phone. So thanks, you explained very well, that it is still a tinker toy. I seriously could do with not optimized software, I also don't mind fixing some things. But if the drivers are still buggy, then I still just see no base to consider it as a phone or something that can become a usable phone in the near future. A shame.
  - MarcusE1W 3y ago
    Regarding a mobile first OS I find this project super interesting. Not finished but it shows one approach to use NuttX and LVGL and explains it in detail. https://lupyuen.codeberg.page/articles/lvgl4.html?1 https://lupyuen.codeberg.page/articles/lvgl4.html?1 https://github.com/lupyuen/pinephone-nuttx https://github.com/lupyuen/pinephone-nuttx
  - megous 3y ago
    What drivers are buggy in particluar? Not sure what you mean about 4G modem/GPS - neither does really have a driver on Pinephone. It's just a normal USB modem device you can also buy and use separately in a PC. GPS just sends some NMEA data over virtual serial port, there's nothing about it that can have a buggy driver. It works just like any other GPS device that can't get assistance data. It's slow to lock on and doesn't work inside.
    - not_your_vase 3y ago
      Right, regarding the modem, saying the driver is buggy is inaccurate. The firmware is what unusable. I tried all available versions, including the closed source ones and biktor's many hacked versions too. The only difference is the time it takes to crash. Some versions just crash every 4 minutes. The best ones only crash anytime between 4 minutes and 6 hours. (It reboots automatically, which takes around 20s + PIN code + network registration..) One thing none of them does is to work reliably for any period of time. And of course, it gets too hot to touch, sometimes to the point when I rather literally remove the battery for a few minutes in fear of heat damage. I really wonder what was the rationale using the same modem in PPP also... Then we have the Wifi/BT driver, which actually works once one finds the binary blob required, but they can't be turned on/off independently. But this is the smallest bug. At least tethering works, as long as one turns off all power saving features (and as long the modem doesn't crash). On a personal level, I wonder if the camera drivers can be even made mainline compatible, with the "2 physical sensor with 1 sensor interface" solution, which kind of requires a custom tailored application also to work... I really find Pinephones a lot of fun, but only as a hacking playground. I take one of my Pinephones with me all the time, but I also keep a phone that I know I can rely on.
      - megous 3y ago
        From the back: :) > "2 physical sensor with 1 sensor interface" This is no problem for media API. sun6i-csi driver for the sensor interface just forces the userspace to select only one sensor at a time. The API is made for this. All camera solutions on phone require custom tailored solutions to work. That's just a difference compared to dekstop USB webcam space. People try to abstract the details in a library (eg. libcamera) or just hardcode it in their app. API for ISP and all required data are just not introspectable, so it has to be hardcoded somewhere in userspace. That's the nature of mainline API. > WIFI/BT BT/Wifi should be controllable independently using software, no? Like on other phones. At least I never noticed any issues in this direction. > Modem crashes. Sounds terrible. Not sure what's that about. I've never experienced any modem crashes, but I don't have a typical setup. I don't use eg25-manager, but my own kernel driver to manage modem power and my own test software to control the modem over AT interface for SMS/calls. I also don't use mobile data. Maybe I should try to stress-test the modem a bit more. Thermal management is lacking, for sure. There are several heat sources in the phone, and there needs to be some software that actively throttles down parts of the phone based on total knowledge of phone activity, and not just simple localized decision-making based on current temperature of individual part. (User on call or using a lot of mobile data, throttle down the main SoC CPU heavily, disable charging or limit severely, etc.)
- slondr 3y ago
  Many people now use the PinePhone as their “daily driver” phone device.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    Do you? I know of none. Of course I heard many people online claiming that they do. But I cannot have something as a daily driver, if I cannot reliable know, if I can make a call, or not. (not even speaking about battery life)
    - jesprenj 3y ago
      I know of one personally. Though the LTE modem is still running very proprietary software.
Roark66 3y ago
Yes, but pine64 shipping is a serious pain point for many regions. I used to buy lots of cheap stuff from them with "EU standard shipping" to Poland that cost like 10eur. This shipping method has disappeared to Poland and many other EU countries last year. Last time I checked they wanted 35eur for shipping. I'm not paying that when buying a $9 board.
- rbanffy 3y ago
  Sounds like a business opportunity for setting up a distribution centre in Europe. Considering the volume, shipping by plane from China to Europe to keep minimal stock and using standard mail would be quite effective.
  - _Microft 3y ago
    They only offer a very limited selection of the products but there is https://www.pine64eu.com https://www.pine64eu.com
- n8henrie 3y ago
  Yes, I was shocked when I finally decided to try a pinetab and got all the way to checkout before discovering a $60 shipping charge for my $160 tablet. Disappointed, "remove from cart," guess I'll buy some android tablet instead.
- hoistbypetard 3y ago
  The Milk-V appears to be unavailable outside mainland China at the moment, which would seem to be a more serious pain point for more regions.
  - wongarsu 3y ago
    If it proves to be even marginally popular it will be sold by tons of resellers on Aliexpress in a couple days or at most weeks.
    - tacon 3y ago
0x000xca0xfe 3y ago
There are no Linux drivers for Bluetooth and Wi-Fi as of yet. Not sure about USB and microSD (for booting).
fnord77 3y ago
128mb now
- tromp 3y ago
  The page mentions 128Mb (megabit) a few times, but I don't believe there's any version with 128MB (megabyte) of ram. Please share a link if you think other wise...
  - ktm5j 3y ago
    I can understand the confusion.. the product is listed as 128Mb vs the 16Mb version here: https://pine64.com/product-category/ox64/ https://pine64.com/product-category/ox64/ But that seems to be referring to XSPI Flash and not RAM.
ahlCVA 3y ago
While the BL808 (what the Ox64 uses) can nominally run Linux, it doesn't really work for that in practice because of design issues in the chip (or to put it differently: it was never designed for that purpose - the C906 core was included to be used as a DSP. The MMU etc. is just incidential.). Almost all peripheral interrupts (such as the the SD controller, Ethernet MAC, etc.) are routed to the E907 core (which is more comparable to a Cortex-M "microcontroller" core in the ARM world). Thus, doing anything useful with it with Linux requires ugly IRQ forwarding hacks. The community is working on that, but it's always going to be a Rube Goldberg thing that I'm not sure upstream will ever accept. I really hope the chip manufacturer realizes what they are sitting on and adds the ability to mux the IRQ lines in a later design. The documentation on the CV1800B is still pretty light, but what I've seen suggests it does not suffer from the same issue, so that alone makes this board much more interesting than the Ox64.
- madushan1000 3y ago
  It has hardware IRQ muxing, this is the driver (https://github.com/smaeul/linux/commit/16eafe2078ebe9306d095abc450585c2417db066 https://github.com/smaeul/linux/commit/16eafe2078ebe9306d095...), we already use if for booting off sdcard/ethernet/usb etc..
  - ahlCVA 3y ago
    I missed that development, thanks! As I understand it, it's not strictly muxing per se - you're basically siphoning off the interrupts from the M0 core using a hardware mechanism instead of firmware + IPC, so any firmware you might want to run on the M0 core still needs to be careful not to mess this up. But it's still an improvement.

hutzlibu 3y ago

OT, is pinephone making some progress? I have not heard about them in quite some time, but was hoping they eventually reach the point, of offering a usable device. I guess they are still not there?

not_your_vase 3y ago
Define "usable". I have both Pinephone and Pinephone Pro, though I use them mostly to tinker with them (hah, I'm in the middle of compiling a new custom system image for the OG). Pro's hardware is definitely better than the original, but the software part is still very alpha. Many driver is still not mainlined, and are very buggy (especially the 4G modem/GPS...) If you ask me, the main issue is that everyone is trying to create a desktop OS for the devices, with the same flaws. Most applications are simply not optimized for mobile. And of course half of the services are Python - which is fine on desktop and server, but on a battery powered embedded device you want to save those expensive cycles... but I start to rant. PinePhones are fun (and affordable) toys if this is your thing, but it stops there. And of course the developer community likes new stuff. Pine64 just released a small mountain of new tablets, everyone is flocking in that direction.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Well, by "usable" I mean a phone, that I can use as a phone. So thanks, you explained very well, that it is still a tinker toy. I seriously could do with not optimized software, I also don't mind fixing some things. But if the drivers are still buggy, then I still just see no base to consider it as a phone or something that can become a usable phone in the near future. A shame.
- MarcusE1W 3y ago
  Regarding a mobile first OS I find this project super interesting. Not finished but it shows one approach to use NuttX and LVGL and explains it in detail. https://lupyuen.codeberg.page/articles/lvgl4.html?1 https://lupyuen.codeberg.page/articles/lvgl4.html?1 https://github.com/lupyuen/pinephone-nuttx https://github.com/lupyuen/pinephone-nuttx
- megous 3y ago
  What drivers are buggy in particluar? Not sure what you mean about 4G modem/GPS - neither does really have a driver on Pinephone. It's just a normal USB modem device you can also buy and use separately in a PC. GPS just sends some NMEA data over virtual serial port, there's nothing about it that can have a buggy driver. It works just like any other GPS device that can't get assistance data. It's slow to lock on and doesn't work inside.
  - not_your_vase 3y ago
    Right, regarding the modem, saying the driver is buggy is inaccurate. The firmware is what unusable. I tried all available versions, including the closed source ones and biktor's many hacked versions too. The only difference is the time it takes to crash. Some versions just crash every 4 minutes. The best ones only crash anytime between 4 minutes and 6 hours. (It reboots automatically, which takes around 20s + PIN code + network registration..) One thing none of them does is to work reliably for any period of time. And of course, it gets too hot to touch, sometimes to the point when I rather literally remove the battery for a few minutes in fear of heat damage. I really wonder what was the rationale using the same modem in PPP also... Then we have the Wifi/BT driver, which actually works once one finds the binary blob required, but they can't be turned on/off independently. But this is the smallest bug. At least tethering works, as long as one turns off all power saving features (and as long the modem doesn't crash). On a personal level, I wonder if the camera drivers can be even made mainline compatible, with the "2 physical sensor with 1 sensor interface" solution, which kind of requires a custom tailored application also to work... I really find Pinephones a lot of fun, but only as a hacking playground. I take one of my Pinephones with me all the time, but I also keep a phone that I know I can rely on.
    - megous 3y ago
      From the back: :) > "2 physical sensor with 1 sensor interface" This is no problem for media API. sun6i-csi driver for the sensor interface just forces the userspace to select only one sensor at a time. The API is made for this. All camera solutions on phone require custom tailored solutions to work. That's just a difference compared to dekstop USB webcam space. People try to abstract the details in a library (eg. libcamera) or just hardcode it in their app. API for ISP and all required data are just not introspectable, so it has to be hardcoded somewhere in userspace. That's the nature of mainline API. > WIFI/BT BT/Wifi should be controllable independently using software, no? Like on other phones. At least I never noticed any issues in this direction. > Modem crashes. Sounds terrible. Not sure what's that about. I've never experienced any modem crashes, but I don't have a typical setup. I don't use eg25-manager, but my own kernel driver to manage modem power and my own test software to control the modem over AT interface for SMS/calls. I also don't use mobile data. Maybe I should try to stress-test the modem a bit more. Thermal management is lacking, for sure. There are several heat sources in the phone, and there needs to be some software that actively throttles down parts of the phone based on total knowledge of phone activity, and not just simple localized decision-making based on current temperature of individual part. (User on call or using a lot of mobile data, throttle down the main SoC CPU heavily, disable charging or limit severely, etc.)
slondr 3y ago
Many people now use the PinePhone as their “daily driver” phone device.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Do you? I know of none. Of course I heard many people online claiming that they do. But I cannot have something as a daily driver, if I cannot reliable know, if I can make a call, or not. (not even speaking about battery life)
  - jesprenj 3y ago
    I know of one personally. Though the LTE modem is still running very proprietary software.

Roark66 3y ago

Yes, but pine64 shipping is a serious pain point for many regions. I used to buy lots of cheap stuff from them with "EU standard shipping" to Poland that cost like 10eur. This shipping method has disappeared to Poland and many other EU countries last year. Last time I checked they wanted 35eur for shipping. I'm not paying that when buying a $9 board.

rbanffy 3y ago
Sounds like a business opportunity for setting up a distribution centre in Europe. Considering the volume, shipping by plane from China to Europe to keep minimal stock and using standard mail would be quite effective.
- _Microft 3y ago
  They only offer a very limited selection of the products but there is https://www.pine64eu.com https://www.pine64eu.com
n8henrie 3y ago
Yes, I was shocked when I finally decided to try a pinetab and got all the way to checkout before discovering a $60 shipping charge for my $160 tablet. Disappointed, "remove from cart," guess I'll buy some android tablet instead.
hoistbypetard 3y ago
The Milk-V appears to be unavailable outside mainland China at the moment, which would seem to be a more serious pain point for more regions.
- wongarsu 3y ago
  If it proves to be even marginally popular it will be sold by tons of resellers on Aliexpress in a couple days or at most weeks.
  - tacon 3y ago

0x000xca0xfe 3y ago

There are no Linux drivers for Bluetooth and Wi-Fi as of yet. Not sure about USB and microSD (for booting).

fnord77 3y ago

128mb now

tromp 3y ago
The page mentions 128Mb (megabit) a few times, but I don't believe there's any version with 128MB (megabyte) of ram. Please share a link if you think other wise...
- ktm5j 3y ago
  I can understand the confusion.. the product is listed as 128Mb vs the 16Mb version here: https://pine64.com/product-category/ox64/ https://pine64.com/product-category/ox64/ But that seems to be referring to XSPI Flash and not RAM.

ahlCVA 3y ago

While the BL808 (what the Ox64 uses) can nominally run Linux, it doesn't really work for that in practice because of design issues in the chip (or to put it differently: it was never designed for that purpose - the C906 core was included to be used as a DSP. The MMU etc. is just incidential.). Almost all peripheral interrupts (such as the the SD controller, Ethernet MAC, etc.) are routed to the E907 core (which is more comparable to a Cortex-M "microcontroller" core in the ARM world). Thus, doing anything useful with it with Linux requires ugly IRQ forwarding hacks. The community is working on that, but it's always going to be a Rube Goldberg thing that I'm not sure upstream will ever accept. I really hope the chip manufacturer realizes what they are sitting on and adds the ability to mux the IRQ lines in a later design. The documentation on the CV1800B is still pretty light, but what I've seen suggests it does not suffer from the same issue, so that alone makes this board much more interesting than the Ox64.

madushan1000 3y ago
It has hardware IRQ muxing, this is the driver (https://github.com/smaeul/linux/commit/16eafe2078ebe9306d095abc450585c2417db066 https://github.com/smaeul/linux/commit/16eafe2078ebe9306d095...), we already use if for booting off sdcard/ethernet/usb etc..
- ahlCVA 3y ago
  I missed that development, thanks! As I understand it, it's not strictly muxing per se - you're basically siphoning off the interrupts from the M0 core using a hardware mechanism instead of firmware + IPC, so any firmware you might want to run on the M0 core still needs to be careful not to mess this up. But it's still an improvement.