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Yes Chomsky sees it the other way around: Ukraines elites are useful idiots in an American proxy war against Russia. (Noam Chomsky On The Russia-Ukraine War)

Yes Chomsky sees it the other way around: Ukraines elites are useful idiots in an American proxy war against Russia. (Noam Chomsky On The Russia-Ukraine War) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD_JdwimnjU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD_JdwimnjU I do not think that "fight Russia to the Last Ukrainian" is driving Western politics, but I believe there's enough cynicism and hypocrisy (and useful idiots) in the West.

fatfingerd 3y ago
But why stop with recent idiots, I think the whole point in flattering Putin for the last few decades was to get Russia here, instead of being the counterbalance to the US in Europe.
- ajuc 3y ago
  Nah, Western Europe wanted cheap resources, USA just didn't wanted to deal with Eastern Europe, so they supported Putin. The deal was "keep order and deliver resources and you get to do what you want". Russia was playing along till mid 00s and when they got their economy more or less together - they immediately started testing the boundaries. Each time they tried anything - nothing bad happened to them. So they tried some more.
ajuc 3y ago
Yes, I know. And he's catastrophically wrong. I think he's blinded by his anti-western bias. Yes, west isn't the good guys. But Russia and China are definitely the bad guys in comparison. Americans didn't wanted to have a proxy (or any other) war against Russia. Americans tried to preserve USSR to keep the region stable and nukes in one place, when it didn't worked they tried establishing good relations and even invited Russia to NATO. Russia didn't wanted to be in an alliance where Latvia has as much say as they do. Because Russia wanted to regain its empire. This is what Eastern Europeans were trying to say for 30 years, and the West didn't listened. Even after 2008 and 2014. And then comes Chomsky&company and says "you easterners should be happy to live in a dictatorship >sphere of inlfuence< because we leftists know better what's good for you. No need to thank us". This is just colonialism. Since 90s it's always been Russia escalating and the West refusing to respond strongly enough, which gave Russia the perception that the West is weak and they can get even more if they escalate further. If West reacted in 2008 how they react now - we could have saved 100s of thousand of people AND avoided 2 wars and billions in military and humanitarian spending. We didn't, because it was easier in the short term to look the other way. But you can't ignore such things forever.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
  > If West reacted in 2008 how they react now - we could have saved 100s of thousand of people AND avoided 2 wars and billions in military and humanitarian spending. We didn't, because it was easier in the short term to look the other way. That feels like 1930s and policy of appeasement, when Germany was taking back Rhineland, creating Luftwaffe, annexing Austria and France with Britain were just looking and doing nothing. Then Munich agreement came about and France with Britain signed it because they did not wanted to do anything. The rest of history is just WW2. It is almost comical to think, that WW2 in Europe could have been reduced to local conflict between Germany and France fighting over Rhineland.
  - pieter_mj 3y ago
    WW2 became almost unavoidable the moment the US got involved in WW1 in 1916.
    - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
      As a history professor I had once said, “the only reason they stopped World War 1 was because they lost an entire generation of soldiers”.
- hackandthink 3y ago
  "But Russia and China are definitely the bad guys in comparison." I agree in the case of Russia, China seems to be dovish in regard of Ukraine. "If West reacted in 2008 how they react now - we could have saved 100s of thousand of people AND avoided 2 wars" I'm not sure here. My guess is Merkel and Macron were right in 2008: trying to get Ukraine and Georgia into NATO would have meant war with Russia. (actually Russia and Georgia fought a war in 2008 about South Ossetia). In my opinion Russia is the bad revisionist guy, but the politics of the West were amateurish and reckless. And in my opinion Ukraine needs a deal and it should have tried to keep Minsk 2. And I do not see this as colonial mindset, as Ukrainian I would think the same.
  - 3y ago
tomjen3 3y ago
After seeing stacks of naked corpses when Ukraine retook Bucha, it became obvious that Russia would do that to the rest of the country too if Ukraine stopped fighting. His opinion is as legitimate as saying the halting problem is trivially solvable.
- ajuc 3y ago
  Russia did ethnic cleansing in Ukraine 2 times in last 100 years. And they openly advocate for it on public TV. But apparently Ukrainians should just surrender and hope for the best.
inglor_cz 3y ago
For a purported anti-racist, Chomsky seems to be denying us, Slavs and Balts east of the former Iron Curtain, any independent agency. We aren't some dumb American puppets. We have our own countries and history. And in that history, we used to be under the Russian yoke - someone for a relatively short time (Czechia), someone for centuries (Estonia), and the vast majority of the formerly yoked nations used their first opportunity to bail and swear never again. Which means never again, even at a cost of an all-out defensive war. Fuck Russia and their backward, cynical, violent empire. They view us as escaped satellites that need to be put back into their rightful orbit and we view them, well, as zombified orcs that bring torment, death and general civilizational regression on the tips of their bayonets. Even countries that escaped that mournful fate, like the Finns, armed themselves to the teeth just to dissuade Russia from ever trying to conquer them again. The upkeep of the Finnish army is a nontrivial part of that small nation's finances, but everyone knows that it is money wisely spent. As for the Ukrainians, they don't have any reasons to love Russia historically, and much less so after the campaign of terror that Putin unleashed on them. Even cities that were majority Russian-speaking, such as Kharkiv and Odessa, suffered from extensive Russian bombing. IDK what happens in Chomsky's head that he can see photos from places like Bucha and not understand that the hatred of the Ukrainians against the aggressors is genuine. Perhaps he is deluded enough to consider them fake. As former subjects of Moscow, nope, this is the Russian world in action as we and our ancestors have experienced it.
- stefantalpalaru 3y ago
  [dead]
- theironhammer 3y ago
  Ukraine tried to ban the Russian language. Ukraine is not sweet and innocent like the lame-stream press would have you believe. Most Ukrainians wanted peace within Ukraine. It was some others who didn't and they got their wish.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > Ukraine tried to ban the Russian language. This is literally not true and even if it was it doesn’t matter it’s their country they can ban Russian if they want. > Ukraine is not sweet and innocent like the lame-stream press would have you believe. I’m confused about this justifies the rape, torture and summary executions of civilians as well as the countless other war crimes. > Most Ukrainians wanted peace within Ukraine. It was some others who didn't and they got their wish. Russia is the one who decided not to have peace when they decided to break the Budapest memorandum multiple times. Russia can leave and peace will be had, or Russia can stay and Russians will continue to die in droves.

fatfingerd 3y ago

But why stop with recent idiots, I think the whole point in flattering Putin for the last few decades was to get Russia here, instead of being the counterbalance to the US in Europe.

ajuc 3y ago
Nah, Western Europe wanted cheap resources, USA just didn't wanted to deal with Eastern Europe, so they supported Putin. The deal was "keep order and deliver resources and you get to do what you want". Russia was playing along till mid 00s and when they got their economy more or less together - they immediately started testing the boundaries. Each time they tried anything - nothing bad happened to them. So they tried some more.

ajuc 3y ago

Yes, I know. And he's catastrophically wrong. I think he's blinded by his anti-western bias. Yes, west isn't the good guys. But Russia and China are definitely the bad guys in comparison. Americans didn't wanted to have a proxy (or any other) war against Russia. Americans tried to preserve USSR to keep the region stable and nukes in one place, when it didn't worked they tried establishing good relations and even invited Russia to NATO. Russia didn't wanted to be in an alliance where Latvia has as much say as they do. Because Russia wanted to regain its empire. This is what Eastern Europeans were trying to say for 30 years, and the West didn't listened. Even after 2008 and 2014. And then comes Chomsky&company and says "you easterners should be happy to live in a dictatorship >sphere of inlfuence< because we leftists know better what's good for you. No need to thank us". This is just colonialism. Since 90s it's always been Russia escalating and the West refusing to respond strongly enough, which gave Russia the perception that the West is weak and they can get even more if they escalate further. If West reacted in 2008 how they react now - we could have saved 100s of thousand of people AND avoided 2 wars and billions in military and humanitarian spending. We didn't, because it was easier in the short term to look the other way. But you can't ignore such things forever.

TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
> If West reacted in 2008 how they react now - we could have saved 100s of thousand of people AND avoided 2 wars and billions in military and humanitarian spending. We didn't, because it was easier in the short term to look the other way. That feels like 1930s and policy of appeasement, when Germany was taking back Rhineland, creating Luftwaffe, annexing Austria and France with Britain were just looking and doing nothing. Then Munich agreement came about and France with Britain signed it because they did not wanted to do anything. The rest of history is just WW2. It is almost comical to think, that WW2 in Europe could have been reduced to local conflict between Germany and France fighting over Rhineland.
- pieter_mj 3y ago
  WW2 became almost unavoidable the moment the US got involved in WW1 in 1916.
  - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
    As a history professor I had once said, “the only reason they stopped World War 1 was because they lost an entire generation of soldiers”.
hackandthink 3y ago
"But Russia and China are definitely the bad guys in comparison." I agree in the case of Russia, China seems to be dovish in regard of Ukraine. "If West reacted in 2008 how they react now - we could have saved 100s of thousand of people AND avoided 2 wars" I'm not sure here. My guess is Merkel and Macron were right in 2008: trying to get Ukraine and Georgia into NATO would have meant war with Russia. (actually Russia and Georgia fought a war in 2008 about South Ossetia). In my opinion Russia is the bad revisionist guy, but the politics of the West were amateurish and reckless. And in my opinion Ukraine needs a deal and it should have tried to keep Minsk 2. And I do not see this as colonial mindset, as Ukrainian I would think the same.
- 3y ago

tomjen3 3y ago

After seeing stacks of naked corpses when Ukraine retook Bucha, it became obvious that Russia would do that to the rest of the country too if Ukraine stopped fighting. His opinion is as legitimate as saying the halting problem is trivially solvable.

ajuc 3y ago
Russia did ethnic cleansing in Ukraine 2 times in last 100 years. And they openly advocate for it on public TV. But apparently Ukrainians should just surrender and hope for the best.

inglor_cz 3y ago

For a purported anti-racist, Chomsky seems to be denying us, Slavs and Balts east of the former Iron Curtain, any independent agency. We aren't some dumb American puppets. We have our own countries and history. And in that history, we used to be under the Russian yoke - someone for a relatively short time (Czechia), someone for centuries (Estonia), and the vast majority of the formerly yoked nations used their first opportunity to bail and swear never again. Which means never again, even at a cost of an all-out defensive war. Fuck Russia and their backward, cynical, violent empire. They view us as escaped satellites that need to be put back into their rightful orbit and we view them, well, as zombified orcs that bring torment, death and general civilizational regression on the tips of their bayonets. Even countries that escaped that mournful fate, like the Finns, armed themselves to the teeth just to dissuade Russia from ever trying to conquer them again. The upkeep of the Finnish army is a nontrivial part of that small nation's finances, but everyone knows that it is money wisely spent. As for the Ukrainians, they don't have any reasons to love Russia historically, and much less so after the campaign of terror that Putin unleashed on them. Even cities that were majority Russian-speaking, such as Kharkiv and Odessa, suffered from extensive Russian bombing. IDK what happens in Chomsky's head that he can see photos from places like Bucha and not understand that the hatred of the Ukrainians against the aggressors is genuine. Perhaps he is deluded enough to consider them fake. As former subjects of Moscow, nope, this is the Russian world in action as we and our ancestors have experienced it.

stefantalpalaru 3y ago
[dead]
theironhammer 3y ago
Ukraine tried to ban the Russian language. Ukraine is not sweet and innocent like the lame-stream press would have you believe. Most Ukrainians wanted peace within Ukraine. It was some others who didn't and they got their wish.
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > Ukraine tried to ban the Russian language. This is literally not true and even if it was it doesn’t matter it’s their country they can ban Russian if they want. > Ukraine is not sweet and innocent like the lame-stream press would have you believe. I’m confused about this justifies the rape, torture and summary executions of civilians as well as the countless other war crimes. > Most Ukrainians wanted peace within Ukraine. It was some others who didn't and they got their wish. Russia is the one who decided not to have peace when they decided to break the Budapest memorandum multiple times. Russia can leave and peace will be had, or Russia can stay and Russians will continue to die in droves.