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A lot of people who contribute content -- original or reposted, or comments and "engagement" -- that Reddit derives its value from also do so through third-part

A lot of people who contribute content -- original or reposted, or comments and "engagement" -- that Reddit derives its value from also do so through third-party apps. Were any stats publicly shared about what fraction of such content and engagement happens through the 3P / API route? If 20% of users drive 80% of overall engagement, what fraction of that 20% rely on third party apps to engage? It is not clear if Reddit has factored this into their analysis when deciding to force these API charges in a hurry -- and effectively cutting off these channels of engagement.

sureglymop 3y ago
The question is... "Value" in terms of content or "value" in terms of contributions that will directly influence revenue and generate profits? I think the CEO is about the latter. It is important to think about what could actually make money for reddit and of maybe more engagement is not even part of that. I'm not a reddit user and I don't have the answer here, I also don't have any skin in this game. However I think when the CEO of a company like reddit makes a statement like that, there's usually a reason for that. I don't think the CEO of reddit genuinely thinks those third party apps add no value in terms of content and user engagement because that would be irrational.
- not_a_shill 3y ago
  >I don't think the CEO of reddit genuinely thinks those third party apps add no value in terms of content and user engagement because that would be irrational. He doesn't mean that, the title is clickbait. "I want to stop you for a second there," Peters interjected. "So you're saying that Apollo, RIF, Sync, they don't add value to Reddit?" "Not as much as they take," said Huffman. "No way."
srslack 3y ago
I think they have, and they just don’t give a shit. The TikTok/Twitter/political hot take repost sewer of /r/all can practically be automated. The value they see is advertisements to those who consume that drivel, and the high value of enterprise (firehose access), not (say) modifying the API to serve ads to users of /r/AskHistorians. If Spez had an honest bone in his body, he’d have just said they don’t want the API for third party clients anymore, for the plebs or the “Landed gentry”, and that they want to shift towards the enterprise focus of reselling that firehose of garbage because apparently you can make an LLM out of it! The money has stopped, and we're not profitable, so the time and capital required to add advertisements and targeting to the public API versus whatever crap they’ve built out over the last few years doesn’t make any financial sense. When they can just sell the firehose of garbage instead. Of course.
hackernewds 3y ago
Is what they are requesting not common and reasonable though? Responsible use of their API, which they sustain as an expense. 90% of third party apps are able to accommodate this. Apollo for ex caches thousands of posts per page load, which no app with self-hosting would ever incorporate. Reddit has also offered to work with the third party apps to improve efficiency. I personally do not believe that reddit has egregiously demanded something unreasonable. However they have produced a masterclass case study of terrible PR and a CEO that has lost the rhyme.
- joefarish 3y ago
  Reddit's ask isn't unreasonable in principal however the inflated API pricing and the short lead-time are just ridiculous.
  - not_a_shill 3y ago
    "It's for backpay over you making millions off us"
    - m-p-3 3y ago
      "... for making a client users actually want, instead of something so basic the average user will install out of necessity, annoyance of the mobile website nagging prompts, or ignorance of other options."
- DandyDev 3y ago
  I think the myth that Apollo was using the API in an inefficient way had been debunked. I'm on mobile now so I cannot easily find the post, but the dev of Apollo explained clearly that how he is using the API is entirely within the limits and conditions that Reddit set. And as I understood it, they weren't making unnecessary calls or anything.
- manuelmoreale 3y ago
  It is my understanding that the entire cost of the Reddit API infrastructure was in the 10M/Year according to the CEO. And yet they wanted 20M/Year just from the Apollo dev. RIF dev said his numbers were in the same ballpark. So with those two alone they were looking at getting 4x the cost of running the API. Asking for money is reasonable. The devs themselves stated that. What’s unreasonable is both the amount of money and the way the change has been rolled out. This is clearly a move to remove some of the big 3rd party competitors from the scene without explicitly stating that they want to remove 3rd party apps.
not_a_shill 3y ago
>If 20% of users drive 80% of overall engagement, what fraction of that 20% rely on third party apps to engage? Probably not nearly as much as y'all make it out to be. Mods, sure...but they've all mostly bent the knee to spez at this point. We're not living in 2014 anymore. Reddit is a completely mainstream platform, 80% of the content comes from politics at this point. None of the usual political shilling subreddits even shut down, so the main """content creators""" didn't even care.

sureglymop 3y ago

The question is... "Value" in terms of content or "value" in terms of contributions that will directly influence revenue and generate profits? I think the CEO is about the latter. It is important to think about what could actually make money for reddit and of maybe more engagement is not even part of that. I'm not a reddit user and I don't have the answer here, I also don't have any skin in this game. However I think when the CEO of a company like reddit makes a statement like that, there's usually a reason for that. I don't think the CEO of reddit genuinely thinks those third party apps add no value in terms of content and user engagement because that would be irrational.

not_a_shill 3y ago
>I don't think the CEO of reddit genuinely thinks those third party apps add no value in terms of content and user engagement because that would be irrational. He doesn't mean that, the title is clickbait. "I want to stop you for a second there," Peters interjected. "So you're saying that Apollo, RIF, Sync, they don't add value to Reddit?" "Not as much as they take," said Huffman. "No way."

srslack 3y ago

I think they have, and they just don’t give a shit. The TikTok/Twitter/political hot take repost sewer of /r/all can practically be automated. The value they see is advertisements to those who consume that drivel, and the high value of enterprise (firehose access), not (say) modifying the API to serve ads to users of /r/AskHistorians. If Spez had an honest bone in his body, he’d have just said they don’t want the API for third party clients anymore, for the plebs or the “Landed gentry”, and that they want to shift towards the enterprise focus of reselling that firehose of garbage because apparently you can make an LLM out of it! The money has stopped, and we're not profitable, so the time and capital required to add advertisements and targeting to the public API versus whatever crap they’ve built out over the last few years doesn’t make any financial sense. When they can just sell the firehose of garbage instead. Of course.

hackernewds 3y ago

Is what they are requesting not common and reasonable though? Responsible use of their API, which they sustain as an expense. 90% of third party apps are able to accommodate this. Apollo for ex caches thousands of posts per page load, which no app with self-hosting would ever incorporate. Reddit has also offered to work with the third party apps to improve efficiency. I personally do not believe that reddit has egregiously demanded something unreasonable. However they have produced a masterclass case study of terrible PR and a CEO that has lost the rhyme.

joefarish 3y ago
Reddit's ask isn't unreasonable in principal however the inflated API pricing and the short lead-time are just ridiculous.
- not_a_shill 3y ago
  "It's for backpay over you making millions off us"
  - m-p-3 3y ago
    "... for making a client users actually want, instead of something so basic the average user will install out of necessity, annoyance of the mobile website nagging prompts, or ignorance of other options."
DandyDev 3y ago
I think the myth that Apollo was using the API in an inefficient way had been debunked. I'm on mobile now so I cannot easily find the post, but the dev of Apollo explained clearly that how he is using the API is entirely within the limits and conditions that Reddit set. And as I understood it, they weren't making unnecessary calls or anything.
manuelmoreale 3y ago
It is my understanding that the entire cost of the Reddit API infrastructure was in the 10M/Year according to the CEO. And yet they wanted 20M/Year just from the Apollo dev. RIF dev said his numbers were in the same ballpark. So with those two alone they were looking at getting 4x the cost of running the API. Asking for money is reasonable. The devs themselves stated that. What’s unreasonable is both the amount of money and the way the change has been rolled out. This is clearly a move to remove some of the big 3rd party competitors from the scene without explicitly stating that they want to remove 3rd party apps.

not_a_shill 3y ago

>If 20% of users drive 80% of overall engagement, what fraction of that 20% rely on third party apps to engage? Probably not nearly as much as y'all make it out to be. Mods, sure...but they've all mostly bent the knee to spez at this point. We're not living in 2014 anymore. Reddit is a completely mainstream platform, 80% of the content comes from politics at this point. None of the usual political shilling subreddits even shut down, so the main """content creators""" didn't even care.