5 ms·

I own a small mountain of SBCs and I rather disagree. 5.10 is old as-is, and often times the patches aren't submitted upstream due to quality. I've made it a ne

I own a small mountain of SBCs and I rather disagree. 5.10 is old as-is, and often times the patches aren't submitted upstream due to quality. I've made it a new rule to only buy boards where there is a recent fork of u-boot, and plans to upstream u-boot/linux patches. Life is short and I'm tired of doing work for companies pushing this stuff out. I can't back this up, but I believe mainlining prevents e-waste by keeping boards serviceable and relevant longer.

lelanthran 3y ago
What are you making out of those boards? After all, on an appliance with no internet access, that cannot be updated OTA, how would having updates help? I'm thinking household appliances, factory monitoring, automotive infotainment systems, environmental control, etc. For most embedded stuff, your choices are leave it in the field or recall. For hobbyists, updates are important. For production it only matters if the device is internet connected.
- viraptor 3y ago
  There's lots of reasons you may need updates anyway. We've seen components which die after an internal counter overflows some amount of days. (Was that SSDs?) Customers will find issues you didn't know about. You'll need to get extra metrics out of remote systems. And many others. Shipping hardware is costly in transport and worker-hours. Being able to update things on site is way better, even if it's "put this on a USB drive, plug in, restart".
- justinclift 3y ago
  > After all, on an appliance with no internet access ... Just to point out, the sales page for this board says in big letters that it can do 10/100 ethernet with an add-on board.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > Just to point out, the sales page for this board says in big letters that it can do 10/100 ethernet with an add-on board. So? If we lower the bar to "can do internet with an add-on" then everything can be internet connected, because there's a network addon (interface card/module, i2c, USB) that can be used by almost every single device out there. It's different when a SoC comes with network - that's obviously targeting always-connected devices.
- ilyt 3y ago
  Ah, the obligatory "WhAt If No InTeRnet" comment that happens every time someone complains software support for board is shit. For one, to not have to keep ancient dev environments around when you need to make small change. Also when you decide to repurpose it for something else, which is far more likely for hobbyist board like this. > For most embedded stuff, your choices are leave it in the field or recall. Sure if you want to get fired. "Sir, you need to pack the $200k worth, 300kg CNC and send it to us so we can upgrade your firmware".
  - wongarsu 3y ago
    The "we can fly one of our field techs to you to upgrade your firmware" option seems to still be somewhat popular in industrial settings. Though I guess that strongly depends on the specific industry.
    - ilyt 3y ago
      Of course but poster above talked about "recall or throw away" which is two worst possible outcomes for both sides. And for technician to be able to do that you need someone that develops the fixes anyway, and it's far cheaper in the long term if you don't need to get the software versions from 10 years ago just to run a compile...
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > Ah, the obligatory "WhAt If No InTeRnet" comment that happens every time someone complains software support for board is shit. There's no what-if - internet is not on that board. Sure, available as a add-on board, but if you use that standard then everything has internet via an add-on i2c/USB device. > Sure if you want to get fired. I don't think you work in the field. > "Sir, you need to pack the $200k worth, 300kg CNC and send it to us so we can upgrade your firmware". You honestly think that every single factory has every single automation controller internet-connected? I mean, I dunno what else that snark was supposed to mean, but I can assure you that factories don't let their equipment talk to the internet. Anything that the equipment needs will get shipped out to the deployment. You aren't working in this field, that much is clear.
- checkyoursudo 3y ago
  > What are you making out of those boards? GP said: "a small mountain". But I think GP does have a good point about ease of serviceability allowing for longer product life, even if it would be on something that you do not expect to require updates.
- happymellon 3y ago
  All of things can be affected by a kernel bug though. So my revision 1.2 of the product has an updated kernel, because it is supported, and I can do this without requiring a full rework of the hardware because it is only a software update. Updates can be applied prior to shipping the hardware. You seem to be advocating that the hardware gets no support because you can't think how things can be updated, which is a strange position to take.
MegaDeKay 3y ago
Can you recommend a couple good boards that fit this criteria?

lelanthran 3y ago

What are you making out of those boards? After all, on an appliance with no internet access, that cannot be updated OTA, how would having updates help? I'm thinking household appliances, factory monitoring, automotive infotainment systems, environmental control, etc. For most embedded stuff, your choices are leave it in the field or recall. For hobbyists, updates are important. For production it only matters if the device is internet connected.

viraptor 3y ago
There's lots of reasons you may need updates anyway. We've seen components which die after an internal counter overflows some amount of days. (Was that SSDs?) Customers will find issues you didn't know about. You'll need to get extra metrics out of remote systems. And many others. Shipping hardware is costly in transport and worker-hours. Being able to update things on site is way better, even if it's "put this on a USB drive, plug in, restart".
justinclift 3y ago
> After all, on an appliance with no internet access ... Just to point out, the sales page for this board says in big letters that it can do 10/100 ethernet with an add-on board.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > Just to point out, the sales page for this board says in big letters that it can do 10/100 ethernet with an add-on board. So? If we lower the bar to "can do internet with an add-on" then everything can be internet connected, because there's a network addon (interface card/module, i2c, USB) that can be used by almost every single device out there. It's different when a SoC comes with network - that's obviously targeting always-connected devices.
ilyt 3y ago
Ah, the obligatory "WhAt If No InTeRnet" comment that happens every time someone complains software support for board is shit. For one, to not have to keep ancient dev environments around when you need to make small change. Also when you decide to repurpose it for something else, which is far more likely for hobbyist board like this. > For most embedded stuff, your choices are leave it in the field or recall. Sure if you want to get fired. "Sir, you need to pack the $200k worth, 300kg CNC and send it to us so we can upgrade your firmware".
- wongarsu 3y ago
  The "we can fly one of our field techs to you to upgrade your firmware" option seems to still be somewhat popular in industrial settings. Though I guess that strongly depends on the specific industry.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    Of course but poster above talked about "recall or throw away" which is two worst possible outcomes for both sides. And for technician to be able to do that you need someone that develops the fixes anyway, and it's far cheaper in the long term if you don't need to get the software versions from 10 years ago just to run a compile...
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > Ah, the obligatory "WhAt If No InTeRnet" comment that happens every time someone complains software support for board is shit. There's no what-if - internet is not on that board. Sure, available as a add-on board, but if you use that standard then everything has internet via an add-on i2c/USB device. > Sure if you want to get fired. I don't think you work in the field. > "Sir, you need to pack the $200k worth, 300kg CNC and send it to us so we can upgrade your firmware". You honestly think that every single factory has every single automation controller internet-connected? I mean, I dunno what else that snark was supposed to mean, but I can assure you that factories don't let their equipment talk to the internet. Anything that the equipment needs will get shipped out to the deployment. You aren't working in this field, that much is clear.
checkyoursudo 3y ago
> What are you making out of those boards? GP said: "a small mountain". But I think GP does have a good point about ease of serviceability allowing for longer product life, even if it would be on something that you do not expect to require updates.
happymellon 3y ago
All of things can be affected by a kernel bug though. So my revision 1.2 of the product has an updated kernel, because it is supported, and I can do this without requiring a full rework of the hardware because it is only a software update. Updates can be applied prior to shipping the hardware. You seem to be advocating that the hardware gets no support because you can't think how things can be updated, which is a strange position to take.

MegaDeKay 3y ago

Can you recommend a couple good boards that fit this criteria?