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I read this book and then started asking devs about BS projects. Turns out there are a lot. I even wrote it up. I remember someone talking about the nth attept

I read this book and then started asking devs about BS projects. Turns out there are a lot. I even wrote it up. I remember someone talking about the nth attepted rewrite of the company's main project. Where all the devs were certain it would fail like the last one but the new CTO had a new plan. Just like the last CTO. So there are definitely lots of people working at jobs they beleive are pointless though somewhere up the hierarchy it's beleived to be important. Which fits grabers definition. The crazy thing is these jobs can be hard. Deadlines to hit and the like, but also they are pointless. It's a path to burnout. https://earthly.dev/blog/bullshit-software-projects/ https://earthly.dev/blog/bullshit-software-projects/

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zeroonetwothree 3y ago
Just because they are “certain” it will fail doesn’t mean it will. Often the leaders of a company are more entrepreneurial than the ICs so it make sense the beliefs would behave this way. In my 20 year career it’s often happened that I thought something was doomed to failure and yet it succeeded. So I don’t put too much stock in my own predictions. And anyway a bullshit job should be bullshit because of the fundamental work of the job, not because of a specific risky project it’s doing for a specific time period. Like all the devs laid off this year didn’t have bullshit jobs just because their companies are fine without them.
- MrJohz 3y ago
  There's definitely a certain irony to the oft-repeated mantra that software estimation is so hard, when you also have so many comments like this one where people are absolutely certain that projects are going to fail miserably! The lack of a clear definition for bullshit jobs is my biggest problem with these sorts of discussions. The term seems to generic that everyone can apply it to something in their lives. For some it's "the job I'm personally doing is unfulfilling", while for others it seems to be "I don't see societal value in my work", and for others it's more about whole classes of jobs or work that could be removed for a better society.
  - adamgordonbell 3y ago
    Oh, but the book has a very clear defintion and one I used as well: Although you are required to do your job, you secretly believe it is pointless and should not need to be performed. You just ask people that. It's based on self-reporting, which has downsides for sure.
    - MrJohz 3y ago
      But again, that's so broad as to be meaningless. What does pointless mean? No value to myself? No value to the company? No value to society? Something else entirely? It's basically just measuring job satisfaction.
- adamgordonbell 3y ago
  I guess it depends on the def right? Graeber uses a very specific self-reported question: Although you are required to do your job, you secretly believe it is pointless and should not need to be performed. So, it's not about the risk but about perceived usefulness from the perspective of the person doing the job.

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zeroonetwothree 3y ago

Just because they are “certain” it will fail doesn’t mean it will. Often the leaders of a company are more entrepreneurial than the ICs so it make sense the beliefs would behave this way. In my 20 year career it’s often happened that I thought something was doomed to failure and yet it succeeded. So I don’t put too much stock in my own predictions. And anyway a bullshit job should be bullshit because of the fundamental work of the job, not because of a specific risky project it’s doing for a specific time period. Like all the devs laid off this year didn’t have bullshit jobs just because their companies are fine without them.

MrJohz 3y ago
There's definitely a certain irony to the oft-repeated mantra that software estimation is so hard, when you also have so many comments like this one where people are absolutely certain that projects are going to fail miserably! The lack of a clear definition for bullshit jobs is my biggest problem with these sorts of discussions. The term seems to generic that everyone can apply it to something in their lives. For some it's "the job I'm personally doing is unfulfilling", while for others it seems to be "I don't see societal value in my work", and for others it's more about whole classes of jobs or work that could be removed for a better society.
- adamgordonbell 3y ago
  Oh, but the book has a very clear defintion and one I used as well: Although you are required to do your job, you secretly believe it is pointless and should not need to be performed. You just ask people that. It's based on self-reporting, which has downsides for sure.
  - MrJohz 3y ago
    But again, that's so broad as to be meaningless. What does pointless mean? No value to myself? No value to the company? No value to society? Something else entirely? It's basically just measuring job satisfaction.
adamgordonbell 3y ago
I guess it depends on the def right? Graeber uses a very specific self-reported question: Although you are required to do your job, you secretly believe it is pointless and should not need to be performed. So, it's not about the risk but about perceived usefulness from the perspective of the person doing the job.