3 ms·

I hear you, but I do think that what you see in attitudes against the working class is more pronounced in SF than in NYC. I’ll argue it has to do with culture,

I hear you, but I do think that what you see in attitudes against the working class is more pronounced in SF than in NYC. I’ll argue it has to do with culture, history, and governance. Absolutely a big difference between SF and NYC is in governance. In NYC, the city government gets shit done. It does it’s job pretty effectively and efficiently: it’s a city that has nearly 10M people from every corner of the world. The lack of a tech monoculture is a key differentiator. The bay, and CA to a large extent, suffers from being a cultural one-trick pony: the gold rush. It’s important to never forget about history and how it informs the present. After Spanish, then American, colonization, SF rose to prominence only because of it’s usefulness as a port city for the desperate folks looking to find their payday. NYC has a subculture that is as greedy and obsessed with money and influence as SF: finance. But it’s only a small part of the overall magnificent NYC cultural fabric. You can go down to wall Street and participate if you want. But you can also make your way and thrive in the city a thousand different ways, with a thousand different groups of people. SF is just a big little city :-/ It’s got it’s amazing pockets and so much potential. But you’re right: the sane thing to do is short SF until it grows up.

klipklop 3y ago
Hearing all the struggles people like Louis Rossmann goes through in NYC, their local government is very dysfunctional when it comes to overseeing small businesses. It seems like a living nightmare. Fine I guess if you work for a large corporation.
- malcolmgreaves 3y ago
  I know of his story and his struggles are sad and also make me upset. However, exceptions happen everywhere. Even a data point that appeals strongly to the emotion of many a tech folk isn’t evidence of a pattern.
xyzelement 3y ago
Interesting perspective. I guess yeah - in some ways folks I know moved to New York to "work hard and make a career" vs a move to Cali is more to "strike it rich." I disagree with you on the finance folks angle. Full disclosure, almost 20 years in finance, now at a faang due to non compete. Most folks I know in finance are in the "hard working career builder" camp - invested in their families and communities for the long term. That's who takes the 7am train from Westchester to operate the index funds in your 401k.
- malcolmgreaves 3y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful, serious reply! Sorry to offend you on the finance culture assessment. But, unlike SF, I’ll choose to be kind here rather than be nice. You may choose to talk about the family man in finance that works toward a career vs getting rich. And I’m not going to say that doesn’t exist: of course it does! Being able to talk about patterns doesn’t mean that individual exceptions aren’t possible. However, you have to admit that your ”hard working career builder” statement was designed to somehow liken this character to someone who actually labors for their money. I have to ask…why not work hard building a different career? The draw of money is the entire point. It’s not like you or I actually provide real, substantial, critical economic value. We work in jobs that can only exist because other folks are taking care of the essentials. So my point is: at some point, it’s not about any sort of perceived attitude working in the industry.(1) Having a city that only caters to eg finance or tech is what is problematic. It drives wealth inequality, it drives prices upwards, it makes homes and rents unaffordable. Ultimately leading to everyone else being forced out of their homes, desperately trying to find someone cheap enough to live while enduring ever longer commutes. This process is what destroyed the SF bay. Even pre pandemic, it was common for working class folks to have 90m commutes into SF to work. It’s why things close at 9, 10p in SF: if you’re closing, you’re getting home at midnight. It didn’t destroy NYC because NYC has a superior functioning government. NYCHA and actually enforced rent control does wonders as a counter force to gentrification. Building in NYC is lightning fast compared to SF, where it takes more than half a decade to build what NYC does in less than a year. And we see this result in the culture. To my first point, NYC came back from the pandemic while SF did not because it’s multiple cultures is robust, resilient, and adaptable. SF’s tech scene scattered in 2020 and the majority isn’t coming back. (1) it’s a little subtle, because I think it’s 2 things. The cultural / attitude mindset helps. But that’s not enough on its own. If the city embraces the rich folks and ignores the poor folks, it’s going to look exactly like SF when the good times go away.
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    // However, you have to admit that your ”hard working career builder” statement was designed to somehow liken this character to someone who actually labors for their money. I have to ask…why not work hard building a different career? The thing you are assuming / missing is that for many of us working in finance is well connected to meaningful impact on the world. To give you a very simple example - one of my typical clients a few jobs back were state teachers and police retirement funds. The folks who run those funds directly impact the quality of life in retirement of these civic employees - and the entire financial industry (brokers, vendors, etc) exist to cater to them. So, the fund manager works to deliver best returns for the retirees. The broker works to provide the manager with superior execution. The trading platform vendor works to provide the broker with reliability and efficiency this requires, etc. The "deeper" into finance you are, the more you recognize the connection between things like farming, energy generations, business formation, etc being enabled through our work. So yeah plenty of guys chose finance because it's a good way to take care of their family AND they see meaning in their work.

klipklop 3y ago

Hearing all the struggles people like Louis Rossmann goes through in NYC, their local government is very dysfunctional when it comes to overseeing small businesses. It seems like a living nightmare. Fine I guess if you work for a large corporation.

malcolmgreaves 3y ago
I know of his story and his struggles are sad and also make me upset. However, exceptions happen everywhere. Even a data point that appeals strongly to the emotion of many a tech folk isn’t evidence of a pattern.

xyzelement 3y ago

Interesting perspective. I guess yeah - in some ways folks I know moved to New York to "work hard and make a career" vs a move to Cali is more to "strike it rich." I disagree with you on the finance folks angle. Full disclosure, almost 20 years in finance, now at a faang due to non compete. Most folks I know in finance are in the "hard working career builder" camp - invested in their families and communities for the long term. That's who takes the 7am train from Westchester to operate the index funds in your 401k.

malcolmgreaves 3y ago
Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful, serious reply! Sorry to offend you on the finance culture assessment. But, unlike SF, I’ll choose to be kind here rather than be nice. You may choose to talk about the family man in finance that works toward a career vs getting rich. And I’m not going to say that doesn’t exist: of course it does! Being able to talk about patterns doesn’t mean that individual exceptions aren’t possible. However, you have to admit that your ”hard working career builder” statement was designed to somehow liken this character to someone who actually labors for their money. I have to ask…why not work hard building a different career? The draw of money is the entire point. It’s not like you or I actually provide real, substantial, critical economic value. We work in jobs that can only exist because other folks are taking care of the essentials. So my point is: at some point, it’s not about any sort of perceived attitude working in the industry.(1) Having a city that only caters to eg finance or tech is what is problematic. It drives wealth inequality, it drives prices upwards, it makes homes and rents unaffordable. Ultimately leading to everyone else being forced out of their homes, desperately trying to find someone cheap enough to live while enduring ever longer commutes. This process is what destroyed the SF bay. Even pre pandemic, it was common for working class folks to have 90m commutes into SF to work. It’s why things close at 9, 10p in SF: if you’re closing, you’re getting home at midnight. It didn’t destroy NYC because NYC has a superior functioning government. NYCHA and actually enforced rent control does wonders as a counter force to gentrification. Building in NYC is lightning fast compared to SF, where it takes more than half a decade to build what NYC does in less than a year. And we see this result in the culture. To my first point, NYC came back from the pandemic while SF did not because it’s multiple cultures is robust, resilient, and adaptable. SF’s tech scene scattered in 2020 and the majority isn’t coming back. (1) it’s a little subtle, because I think it’s 2 things. The cultural / attitude mindset helps. But that’s not enough on its own. If the city embraces the rich folks and ignores the poor folks, it’s going to look exactly like SF when the good times go away.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  // However, you have to admit that your ”hard working career builder” statement was designed to somehow liken this character to someone who actually labors for their money. I have to ask…why not work hard building a different career? The thing you are assuming / missing is that for many of us working in finance is well connected to meaningful impact on the world. To give you a very simple example - one of my typical clients a few jobs back were state teachers and police retirement funds. The folks who run those funds directly impact the quality of life in retirement of these civic employees - and the entire financial industry (brokers, vendors, etc) exist to cater to them. So, the fund manager works to deliver best returns for the retirees. The broker works to provide the manager with superior execution. The trading platform vendor works to provide the broker with reliability and efficiency this requires, etc. The "deeper" into finance you are, the more you recognize the connection between things like farming, energy generations, business formation, etc being enabled through our work. So yeah plenty of guys chose finance because it's a good way to take care of their family AND they see meaning in their work.