5 ms·

A vibe I noticed in California that I see here in NY as well - but not in the Midwest or down south - is the overt disrespect to the mainstream working / family

A vibe I noticed in California that I see here in NY as well - but not in the Midwest or down south - is the overt disrespect to the mainstream working / family people / anyone who can take care of themselves. I am sure it starts from a empathetic place but leads to bad policy (eg: not prosecuting crimes out of empathy or to correct historical ethnic wrongdoing etc.) The problem is that these policies cause a real decline in the quality of life for everyone. Then folks who can afford to leave, leave - which happens to be the people who work, pay for everything for everyone and keep the place going. Their departure kicks off a spiral that keeps going until those stuck behind had enough. An example of that turnaround is the Giuliani/ Bloomberg years in NYC - folks who ran on platforms of reducing crime and actually making life better for those who keep the place going. From that limited perspective, I am going to be "short" San Francisco until the rhetoric changes.

cycrutchfield 3y ago
Thank you for acknowledging that you have a very limited perspective on the matter.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  Of course :) I can't tell if you are complimenting generic self awareness or are you implying that you have a richer perspective? If later, please share with us.
malcolmgreaves 3y ago
I hear you, but I do think that what you see in attitudes against the working class is more pronounced in SF than in NYC. I’ll argue it has to do with culture, history, and governance. Absolutely a big difference between SF and NYC is in governance. In NYC, the city government gets shit done. It does it’s job pretty effectively and efficiently: it’s a city that has nearly 10M people from every corner of the world. The lack of a tech monoculture is a key differentiator. The bay, and CA to a large extent, suffers from being a cultural one-trick pony: the gold rush. It’s important to never forget about history and how it informs the present. After Spanish, then American, colonization, SF rose to prominence only because of it’s usefulness as a port city for the desperate folks looking to find their payday. NYC has a subculture that is as greedy and obsessed with money and influence as SF: finance. But it’s only a small part of the overall magnificent NYC cultural fabric. You can go down to wall Street and participate if you want. But you can also make your way and thrive in the city a thousand different ways, with a thousand different groups of people. SF is just a big little city :-/ It’s got it’s amazing pockets and so much potential. But you’re right: the sane thing to do is short SF until it grows up.
- klipklop 3y ago
  Hearing all the struggles people like Louis Rossmann goes through in NYC, their local government is very dysfunctional when it comes to overseeing small businesses. It seems like a living nightmare. Fine I guess if you work for a large corporation.
  - malcolmgreaves 3y ago
    I know of his story and his struggles are sad and also make me upset. However, exceptions happen everywhere. Even a data point that appeals strongly to the emotion of many a tech folk isn’t evidence of a pattern.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  Interesting perspective. I guess yeah - in some ways folks I know moved to New York to "work hard and make a career" vs a move to Cali is more to "strike it rich." I disagree with you on the finance folks angle. Full disclosure, almost 20 years in finance, now at a faang due to non compete. Most folks I know in finance are in the "hard working career builder" camp - invested in their families and communities for the long term. That's who takes the 7am train from Westchester to operate the index funds in your 401k.
  - malcolmgreaves 3y ago
    Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful, serious reply! Sorry to offend you on the finance culture assessment. But, unlike SF, I’ll choose to be kind here rather than be nice. You may choose to talk about the family man in finance that works toward a career vs getting rich. And I’m not going to say that doesn’t exist: of course it does! Being able to talk about patterns doesn’t mean that individual exceptions aren’t possible. However, you have to admit that your ”hard working career builder” statement was designed to somehow liken this character to someone who actually labors for their money. I have to ask…why not work hard building a different career? The draw of money is the entire point. It’s not like you or I actually provide real, substantial, critical economic value. We work in jobs that can only exist because other folks are taking care of the essentials. So my point is: at some point, it’s not about any sort of perceived attitude working in the industry.(1) Having a city that only caters to eg finance or tech is what is problematic. It drives wealth inequality, it drives prices upwards, it makes homes and rents unaffordable. Ultimately leading to everyone else being forced out of their homes, desperately trying to find someone cheap enough to live while enduring ever longer commutes. This process is what destroyed the SF bay. Even pre pandemic, it was common for working class folks to have 90m commutes into SF to work. It’s why things close at 9, 10p in SF: if you’re closing, you’re getting home at midnight. It didn’t destroy NYC because NYC has a superior functioning government. NYCHA and actually enforced rent control does wonders as a counter force to gentrification. Building in NYC is lightning fast compared to SF, where it takes more than half a decade to build what NYC does in less than a year. And we see this result in the culture. To my first point, NYC came back from the pandemic while SF did not because it’s multiple cultures is robust, resilient, and adaptable. SF’s tech scene scattered in 2020 and the majority isn’t coming back. (1) it’s a little subtle, because I think it’s 2 things. The cultural / attitude mindset helps. But that’s not enough on its own. If the city embraces the rich folks and ignores the poor folks, it’s going to look exactly like SF when the good times go away.
TMWNN 3y ago
>An example of that turnaround is the Giuliani/ Bloomberg years in NYC - folks who ran on platforms of reducing crime and actually making life better for those who keep the place going. Giuliani was elected NYC mayor in 1993 and reelected in 1997 (two-term limit). It is not an exaggeration to say that the typical Upper West Side or Park Slope liberal on election day 1997 spent the morning denouncing Giuliani as a proto-fascist who led a fascist police force, voted for his reelection in the secrecy of the ballot box (he won by 13% although Democrats that year had a 5X registration advantage <http://www.elections.ny.gov/NYSBOE/enrollment/county/county_nov97.pdf http://www.elections.ny.gov/NYSBOE/enrollment/county/county_...>), then spent the evening bemoaning his reelection and confidently predicting to their friends that the administration would of course kill or exile yet more homeless.

cycrutchfield 3y ago

Thank you for acknowledging that you have a very limited perspective on the matter.

xyzelement 3y ago
Of course :) I can't tell if you are complimenting generic self awareness or are you implying that you have a richer perspective? If later, please share with us.

malcolmgreaves 3y ago

I hear you, but I do think that what you see in attitudes against the working class is more pronounced in SF than in NYC. I’ll argue it has to do with culture, history, and governance. Absolutely a big difference between SF and NYC is in governance. In NYC, the city government gets shit done. It does it’s job pretty effectively and efficiently: it’s a city that has nearly 10M people from every corner of the world. The lack of a tech monoculture is a key differentiator. The bay, and CA to a large extent, suffers from being a cultural one-trick pony: the gold rush. It’s important to never forget about history and how it informs the present. After Spanish, then American, colonization, SF rose to prominence only because of it’s usefulness as a port city for the desperate folks looking to find their payday. NYC has a subculture that is as greedy and obsessed with money and influence as SF: finance. But it’s only a small part of the overall magnificent NYC cultural fabric. You can go down to wall Street and participate if you want. But you can also make your way and thrive in the city a thousand different ways, with a thousand different groups of people. SF is just a big little city :-/ It’s got it’s amazing pockets and so much potential. But you’re right: the sane thing to do is short SF until it grows up.

klipklop 3y ago
Hearing all the struggles people like Louis Rossmann goes through in NYC, their local government is very dysfunctional when it comes to overseeing small businesses. It seems like a living nightmare. Fine I guess if you work for a large corporation.
- malcolmgreaves 3y ago
  I know of his story and his struggles are sad and also make me upset. However, exceptions happen everywhere. Even a data point that appeals strongly to the emotion of many a tech folk isn’t evidence of a pattern.
xyzelement 3y ago
Interesting perspective. I guess yeah - in some ways folks I know moved to New York to "work hard and make a career" vs a move to Cali is more to "strike it rich." I disagree with you on the finance folks angle. Full disclosure, almost 20 years in finance, now at a faang due to non compete. Most folks I know in finance are in the "hard working career builder" camp - invested in their families and communities for the long term. That's who takes the 7am train from Westchester to operate the index funds in your 401k.
- malcolmgreaves 3y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful, serious reply! Sorry to offend you on the finance culture assessment. But, unlike SF, I’ll choose to be kind here rather than be nice. You may choose to talk about the family man in finance that works toward a career vs getting rich. And I’m not going to say that doesn’t exist: of course it does! Being able to talk about patterns doesn’t mean that individual exceptions aren’t possible. However, you have to admit that your ”hard working career builder” statement was designed to somehow liken this character to someone who actually labors for their money. I have to ask…why not work hard building a different career? The draw of money is the entire point. It’s not like you or I actually provide real, substantial, critical economic value. We work in jobs that can only exist because other folks are taking care of the essentials. So my point is: at some point, it’s not about any sort of perceived attitude working in the industry.(1) Having a city that only caters to eg finance or tech is what is problematic. It drives wealth inequality, it drives prices upwards, it makes homes and rents unaffordable. Ultimately leading to everyone else being forced out of their homes, desperately trying to find someone cheap enough to live while enduring ever longer commutes. This process is what destroyed the SF bay. Even pre pandemic, it was common for working class folks to have 90m commutes into SF to work. It’s why things close at 9, 10p in SF: if you’re closing, you’re getting home at midnight. It didn’t destroy NYC because NYC has a superior functioning government. NYCHA and actually enforced rent control does wonders as a counter force to gentrification. Building in NYC is lightning fast compared to SF, where it takes more than half a decade to build what NYC does in less than a year. And we see this result in the culture. To my first point, NYC came back from the pandemic while SF did not because it’s multiple cultures is robust, resilient, and adaptable. SF’s tech scene scattered in 2020 and the majority isn’t coming back. (1) it’s a little subtle, because I think it’s 2 things. The cultural / attitude mindset helps. But that’s not enough on its own. If the city embraces the rich folks and ignores the poor folks, it’s going to look exactly like SF when the good times go away.

TMWNN 3y ago

>An example of that turnaround is the Giuliani/ Bloomberg years in NYC - folks who ran on platforms of reducing crime and actually making life better for those who keep the place going. Giuliani was elected NYC mayor in 1993 and reelected in 1997 (two-term limit). It is not an exaggeration to say that the typical Upper West Side or Park Slope liberal on election day 1997 spent the morning denouncing Giuliani as a proto-fascist who led a fascist police force, voted for his reelection in the secrecy of the ballot box (he won by 13% although Democrats that year had a 5X registration advantage <http://www.elections.ny.gov/NYSBOE/enrollment/county/county_nov97.pdf http://www.elections.ny.gov/NYSBOE/enrollment/county/county_...>), then spent the evening bemoaning his reelection and confidently predicting to their friends that the administration would of course kill or exile yet more homeless.