7 ms·

There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon

by berntb 15y ago

There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda. You guys also wear white capes? >>The Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians caused the refugee problem in the first place You handpick facts and twist them. Some points: 1. There were lots of refugee problems in both world wars, many worse than Palestine. This is the only case were the suffering was made permanent for generations, just to be able to keep up the hate. It is just disgusting that you blame others for what the Arab states did differently than the rest of the world. 2. There were more people thrown out from the muslim world just for being jews than Palestinians that fled in the middle of a civil war. Then there were jews from the West Bank that fled 1948-1949. Why do you guys never mention them? 3. Argh, enough. You don't argue, you write one eyed hateful propaganda. I stopped reading. This is the result of letting this subject onto HN. The language wars trolls are bad as it is.

ucee054 15y ago
"You handpick facts and twist them" If you think the facts that I or the original poster (or anyone else) have presented about the Israeli treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians, or about Israeli public relations, are selective, then let's see all the facts. That doesn't mean "let's change the subject to Sudan". It doesn't mean "let's call him an antisemite". It also doesn't mean "let's make stuff up". For example, you claimed that Israel doesn't glorify infanticide and I provided the link showing that snipers from the IDF Givati Brigade glorify the shooting dead of fetuses enough to wear Tshirts about it. Or you said that I provided "very little support" for my contentions about Israeli public relations, when in fact I provided the term in Hebrew hasbara that any reader can google and wikipedia for and decide for themselves. It looks pretty silly when you make up stuff that a reader can falsify by looking on the same web page. Worst of all, you keep trying to allege that I said that Jews - control the media, when what I talked about was Israel supporters - organize public relations. This is called ad-hominem. You are trying to label me as Hitler because you are on the wrong side of the facts about Israel's treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians, and so you can't stand seeing these facts on Hacker News and wish to censor them. It is intellectually dishonest and I read it as a violation of the Hacker News Guideline: "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names." I will therefore not reply to you further.
- berntb 15y ago
  You didn't like that I wrote that you argued non seriously. But you have nothing to say about the facts I argued that you handpicked, re expulsions for racist reasons (wrong religion) as compared to in the middle of a burning civil war, which both sides did? So you have totally different standards for different sides. I wrote that "Israel doesn't glorify infanticide" >>snipers from the IDF Givati Brigade I don't believe you are honest here, either. You do realize that there is a difference between an official policy (mural paintings and celebrations when children are murdered with a knife in their sleep, etc) -- and the attitudes of individuals. (You will find individuals with most any opinion in any country and in democracies they can express most of those opinions, too.) I already made this point re T-shirts, you had nothing to say then either. And so on. Keep this subject and the fanatics off HN.
- berntb 15y ago
  This might also be noted: >>Worst of all, you keep trying to allege that I said that Jews - control the media, when what I talked about was Israel supporters - organize public relations. You ignored the 1st sentence in what you comment: "There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda." But you know that. You can only argue against straw men. As my last words: Repeatedly condemning a heterogeneous democracy based on T-shirts of a small subgroup.... That must be the most pathetic and dishonest garbage I've seen in my life. Then you claim I am dishonest... I got vertigo. If you're a troll, congratulations on blood pressure raised by sheer dishonesty.
- berntb 15y ago
  After calming down, some well meant advice. I realise that conspiracy theories, intolerance and similar breed like flies in dictatorships. Afaik, it was the same in e.g. Eastern Germany. But even if you grew up in a non-democracy, you should be smarter than condemning a whole country for what some individuals do. Especially in this case, with all the very different political movements inside Israel. I realise you were taught that kind of "reasoning" in school and by media, but start thinking for yourself. For your own sake. For instance, consider the anti semitic-inspired conspiracy theories about media control -- if you see your other garbage (T-shirts, etc) you ought to realise that you've been fed with some outrageous lies. Sooo... there might be things in those US media which you don't know, right? All the above assumes you are just brainwashed by your social environment and not consciously doing propaganda. (That you are unable to acknowledge a point and either ignores it or start with judging countries for a T-shirt(!) do speak for you being a hate mongering propagandist. But I am not certain.)
DanBC 15y ago
> This is the result of letting this subject onto HN. Yes, exactly. This subject will always, without fail, produce vitriolic hate-filled comments, without possibility of changing opinions. Ann will say "Look at how $GROUP does this"; Bob will accuse Ann of blatant anti-semitic racism while Charles will accuse Ann of ignoring the blatant human-rights abuses against some other group. This is entirely predictable, and is why subjects like this do not belong on HN.
- ucee054 15y ago
  Why? The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge. berntb can mention Hamas bombing civilians and Jewish expulsions, and I can mention the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and Israeli actions against the Occupy movement. I don't need to negate his points or convince him of anything. Once all the facts are on the table we can then trust the Hacker News readership to be intelligent enough to decide for themselves.
  - DanBC 15y ago
    ...the fact that you misuse the term "ethnic cleansing" is annoying enough for me to respond, but this is my last reply to this thread. County X has two populations, the zarbs and the tiwks. The zarbs kill all the tiwks. The zarbs have been ethnically cleansed. You may think this is a trivial point. But you're talking to an international audience, and you're talking about a subject where language is analysed in minute detail for perceived insult or support or whatnot.
    - ucee054 15y ago
      No, that's genocide. Genocide = Killing Ethnic cleansing = Expulsion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
  - DanBC 15y ago
    Please stop.

by berntb 15y ago

ucee054 15y ago

"You handpick facts and twist them" If you think the facts that I or the original poster (or anyone else) have presented about the Israeli treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians, or about Israeli public relations, are selective, then let's see all the facts. That doesn't mean "let's change the subject to Sudan". It doesn't mean "let's call him an antisemite". It also doesn't mean "let's make stuff up". For example, you claimed that Israel doesn't glorify infanticide and I provided the link showing that snipers from the IDF Givati Brigade glorify the shooting dead of fetuses enough to wear Tshirts about it. Or you said that I provided "very little support" for my contentions about Israeli public relations, when in fact I provided the term in Hebrew hasbara that any reader can google and wikipedia for and decide for themselves. It looks pretty silly when you make up stuff that a reader can falsify by looking on the same web page. Worst of all, you keep trying to allege that I said that Jews - control the media, when what I talked about was Israel supporters - organize public relations. This is called ad-hominem. You are trying to label me as Hitler because you are on the wrong side of the facts about Israel's treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians, and so you can't stand seeing these facts on Hacker News and wish to censor them. It is intellectually dishonest and I read it as a violation of the Hacker News Guideline: "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names." I will therefore not reply to you further.

berntb 15y ago
You didn't like that I wrote that you argued non seriously. But you have nothing to say about the facts I argued that you handpicked, re expulsions for racist reasons (wrong religion) as compared to in the middle of a burning civil war, which both sides did? So you have totally different standards for different sides. I wrote that "Israel doesn't glorify infanticide" >>snipers from the IDF Givati Brigade I don't believe you are honest here, either. You do realize that there is a difference between an official policy (mural paintings and celebrations when children are murdered with a knife in their sleep, etc) -- and the attitudes of individuals. (You will find individuals with most any opinion in any country and in democracies they can express most of those opinions, too.) I already made this point re T-shirts, you had nothing to say then either. And so on. Keep this subject and the fanatics off HN.
berntb 15y ago
This might also be noted: >>Worst of all, you keep trying to allege that I said that Jews - control the media, when what I talked about was Israel supporters - organize public relations. You ignored the 1st sentence in what you comment: "There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda." But you know that. You can only argue against straw men. As my last words: Repeatedly condemning a heterogeneous democracy based on T-shirts of a small subgroup.... That must be the most pathetic and dishonest garbage I've seen in my life. Then you claim I am dishonest... I got vertigo. If you're a troll, congratulations on blood pressure raised by sheer dishonesty.
berntb 15y ago
After calming down, some well meant advice. I realise that conspiracy theories, intolerance and similar breed like flies in dictatorships. Afaik, it was the same in e.g. Eastern Germany. But even if you grew up in a non-democracy, you should be smarter than condemning a whole country for what some individuals do. Especially in this case, with all the very different political movements inside Israel. I realise you were taught that kind of "reasoning" in school and by media, but start thinking for yourself. For your own sake. For instance, consider the anti semitic-inspired conspiracy theories about media control -- if you see your other garbage (T-shirts, etc) you ought to realise that you've been fed with some outrageous lies. Sooo... there might be things in those US media which you don't know, right? All the above assumes you are just brainwashed by your social environment and not consciously doing propaganda. (That you are unable to acknowledge a point and either ignores it or start with judging countries for a T-shirt(!) do speak for you being a hate mongering propagandist. But I am not certain.)

DanBC 15y ago

> This is the result of letting this subject onto HN. Yes, exactly. This subject will always, without fail, produce vitriolic hate-filled comments, without possibility of changing opinions. Ann will say "Look at how $GROUP does this"; Bob will accuse Ann of blatant anti-semitic racism while Charles will accuse Ann of ignoring the blatant human-rights abuses against some other group. This is entirely predictable, and is why subjects like this do not belong on HN.

ucee054 15y ago
Why? The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge. berntb can mention Hamas bombing civilians and Jewish expulsions, and I can mention the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and Israeli actions against the Occupy movement. I don't need to negate his points or convince him of anything. Once all the facts are on the table we can then trust the Hacker News readership to be intelligent enough to decide for themselves.
- DanBC 15y ago
  ...the fact that you misuse the term "ethnic cleansing" is annoying enough for me to respond, but this is my last reply to this thread. County X has two populations, the zarbs and the tiwks. The zarbs kill all the tiwks. The zarbs have been ethnically cleansed. You may think this is a trivial point. But you're talking to an international audience, and you're talking about a subject where language is analysed in minute detail for perceived insult or support or whatnot.
  - ucee054 15y ago
    No, that's genocide. Genocide = Killing Ethnic cleansing = Expulsion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
- DanBC 15y ago
  Please stop.