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They could also just support remote work and not be such a factor in consolidating so many people that make so much money in such a small area that engineers ma
by kodah 3y ago
They could also just support remote work and not be such a factor in consolidating so many people that make so much money in such a small area that engineers making $300k [1] are considered middle class.
This seems to be just extending the problem.
1: https://smartasset.com/data-studies/how-to-be-middle-class-americas-largest-cities-2023 https://smartasset.com/data-studies/how-to-be-middle-class-a...
- knorker 3y agoAll the SVPs and VPs are remote. Presumably these leaders are showing the way of the future? (ok, so not "all", but there's a lot of "rule for thee but not for me")
- pb7 3y ago$400K/year is the 95th percentile individual income in the Bay Area. That's not middle class.
- gedy 3y agoI suppose, that’s probably what you need to have a middle-class lifestyle up there too
- reducesuffering 3y ago0 chance. That's $270k after tax for a single earner family. A US middle class 4br/2ba 1800 sqft. SFH is $50k/yr to rent within 30 minutes of Google. So $220k in disposable income while US median household income is just $70k.
- gedy 3y agoSure, but I'd count home ownership in a safe area as a middle class metric. That would at least double the housing costs.
- reducesuffering 3y agoPlenty options <= $1.5m , so $8.2k - $9k monthly PITI. In the worse case, you consider that lost $ and now your disposable is still $162k. But actually, rent is closer to the net housing cost, because owning will reduce your taxes, increasing income ~$1k/mth, another + ~$2k/mth into equity, and another + $2k/mth inflation (loan is chipped away), so you're still looking at $4k/mth actual cost (if not less).
- p1esk 3y agoIf most of population is poor, median is poor.
- reducesuffering 3y agoUS is one of the richest countries in the world. People on average have more land, spacious SFH, and new vehicles.
- p1esk 3y agoThat’s probably why they also have the highest amount of debt.
- armatav 3y ago$6k+ per month in Mountain View minimum to not live in a shack.
- reducesuffering 3y agoNo one is required to live next door to your job, and even if you were, you've only changed the calculus to be $200k disposable income?
- ahahahahah 3y agoHere's a 4bed condo for $4k right next to Google: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/701-N-Rengstorff-Ave-APT-20-Mountain-View-CA-94043/19513581_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/701-N-Rengstorff-Ave-APT-... Newark or Fremont is within 30 minutes drive (usually within 40 for rush hour) and there's tons at that price point. On the Google side of the bay there's many around $5k. And honestly, as pointed out, an extra $10-20k on housing doesn't really change the point anyway.
- armatav 3y agoIt makes it higher than the median wage he mentioned…
- ahahahahah 3y agoSo what? That again doesn't at all change the point of the argument, which had nothing to do with affordability of those rentals for people making median wage or anything else. It only mentioned that median as a comparison to how much disposable income someone making that amount would still have even after paying bay area rents.
- armatav 3y agoRead. “I suppose, that’s probably what you need to have a middle-class lifestyle up there too” The point I’m making is that the median middle class income, $70k/year, doesn’t work - which is in agreement with him - pay attention.
- DeRock 3y agoYour rent price is way off, you’re looking at 6k/month (72k/year) for a 4-bed, at least.
- reducesuffering 3y agoSo $200k disposable income then? Also, news to me since I'm in a $4.2k/mth rental, and feel free to view all the <= $4k 4-bed within commuting distance: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_rent/?searchQueryState=%7B%22usersSearchTerm%22%3A%22San%20Jose%2C%20CA%22%2C%22mapBounds%22%3A%7B%22west%22%3A-122.35612447670108%2C%22east%22%3A-121.88233907631046%2C%22south%22%3A37.306227816458474%2C%22north%22%3A37.61689569189577%7D%2C%22isMapVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22filterState%22%3A%7B%22price%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A0%2C%22max%22%3A792043%7D%2C%22mp%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A0%2C%22max%22%3A4000%7D%2C%22beds%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A4%7D%2C%22sort%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22days%22%7D%2C%22ah%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22con%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22mf%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22manu%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22land%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22tow%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22apa%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22apco%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22fr%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22fsba%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22fsbo%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22nc%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22cmsn%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22auc%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22fore%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%7D%2C%22isListVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22pagination%22%3A%7B%7D%2C%22mapZoom%22%3A11%7D https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_rent/?searchQueryState=%7B%...
- kodah 3y agoI was making a reference to this study: https://smartasset.com/data-studies/how-to-be-middle-class-americas-largest-cities-2023 https://smartasset.com/data-studies/how-to-be-middle-class-a.... It's 300k not 400k, I'll fix my comment.
- pb7 3y ago>It's 300k not 400k, I'll fix my comment. It's not $300K, it's $243K household income in San Francisco and $252K household income in San Jose in your own link and that's the upper bound of some arbitrary "study". Please don't spread misinformation as it makes this site look poorly educated.
- kodah 3y agoUh, ok? Are classes not judged by household income? Are you assuming every tech worker is married to another high income earner? Someone having a perspective, which is based on data, that you disagree with does not qualify as misinformation. I lived in the aforementioned cities and am not in a relationship with someone who is a high income earner. I think it's fine to point out how problematic it is that whether it's 250, 300, or 400k being the bar for middle class is pretty far down the line of problematicness.
- pb7 3y agoI guess I’ll spell it out for you. An individual making $400K is rarer than a household making $400K so if the upper bound for a household is $250K, the individual upper bound is far lower, which is nowhere near $400K. The claim that someone that makes even $300K is “middle class” anywhere is hilarious. That person becomes a millionaire in their 20s while living a very cushy life. You’re incredibly out of touch.
- kodah 3y agoI don't think you really understand what that study is saying nor the guidelines of this website. I was single living in that area on roughly $300k. My effective tax rate (state + federal, post Trump's tax changes) was around 34.64% and my rent was 3.6k per month for a two bedroom duplex in San Jose. I'm not sure how you gander that adds up to being a millionaire in any soonish timeframe. The last time I ran Monte Carlo on my income I'd, maybe, make my first million in my late 40s. You're sitting here telling a story about two people who are married making 400k. Optimizing for married people when folks are forced to commute and only telling that story is a tad disengenuous when millennials are known to get married mostly in their 30s. I have a feeling you're mixing up middle-income and middle-class, which are not the same thing.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> That’s not middle class. It’s not middle income, but, insofar as income correlates with economic class, its quite consistent (if, as here, it is labor income) with middle class (petit bourgeois), since the worker with that income likely has substantial capital investment and income (or at least accumulation if they aren’t realizing income), but is not independent of renting their labor or applying it to that capital for support. Middle income isn’t middle class, and people at that income level are generally firmly in the working class.
- 8ytecoder 3y ago$30,000 is 95th percentile in the world. I’m not sure what your point is. https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i
- pkelly 3y agoPretty sure this is a move to support remote work. They are trimming down their existing campus to build more homes in the bay area, which is in dire need of that. Big tech has lots of real estate for their mega campuses. It is gonna take a while to unwind that.