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I'm currently using Laravel at work. It's very opinionated, and some folks say it uses anti-patterns with regards to its use of facades. That being said my last

I'm currently using Laravel at work. It's very opinionated, and some folks say it uses anti-patterns with regards to its use of facades. That being said my last job was C#/.Net and I am so much more productive with Laravel. It really allows you to develop quickly and I haven't yet bitten by any of the "anti-patterns". If you give it a shot I'd recommend just using Laravel Sail as, if you already have docker installed, you can have a full dev environment setup in less than 10 minutes.

frodowtf 3y ago
To me, "anti-pattern" has the same bogus meaning as "clean code"
- zeroego 3y ago
  That's an interesting take! I'm still early in my career and I ask with genuine curiosity, but why do you think "clean code" has a bogus meaning?
  - spion 3y ago
    Not the OP, but clean code misses the point. Its is very subjective and depends on one person's previous experience and patterns they've been exposed to. "Reasonably readable" is what I strive for nowadays, and a key aspect is that I no longer think there is an objective measure for it. It depends on the team/company you're in, and its important to keep in mind that the goal is to effectively communicate the program to them.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - rjh29 3y ago
    I suggest you read malux85's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36371733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36371733
- malux85 3y ago
  Although at a high level many of things things are subjective, this take is almost entirely wrong in every dimension. Anti-patterns are things like using a wrong data structure, using the wrong levels of abstractions, tightly coupling components so they are not composable, leaky interfaces, god objects doing too much The strict definitions of many of these can be subjective at the edges, but they all objectively exist and cause fragility, instability, inflexibility and maintenance problems in the systems built from them. Clean code is code that’s easy to read, has the right level of abstractions, uses the right data structures and has the minimal possible anti-patterns in them (ideally zero!) above. Calling these things bogus is unfair, I grant they can be subjective in some places but they are prevalent in poorly designed systems especially by junior engineers. Wikipedia page on anti-patterns: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-patterns https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-patterns There are project management anti patterns too https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern Anti patterns are real. Clean code is real. If you cannot see that, I would suggest reading a lot more codebases from open source projects (pick medium and large codebases, not trivial programs) and after 10 or so you will see obvious structural and quality differences, as well as hundreds of anti patterns and examples of clean code.
  - zeroego 3y ago
    This is a solid argument, thanks for taking the time to write this out!
  - nrdvana 3y ago
    I'll agree with everything here except the clean code. Clean code is about optimizing human perception and there can't be a standard for that because humans think in a wide variety of ways and it's further impacted by the level of understanding the human already has on the subject matter the code is dealing with. One person's "clean code" can be another person's nightmare. I'll back this up with the example of Magento 1. It's a PHP e-commerce platform that has (at first glance) some of the cleanest code you'll ever see in PHP. It looked like the entire development team had come from a Java background. Every component was neatly divided into a PHP object with documented private and public methods. There was a clean MVC separation, with lots of shared behavior abstracted into "Helpers", and a Theme system handling the rendering of the front-end. I have no doubt that the authors of Magento prided themselves on how clean their code was. For them, having spent full-time careers structuring all the many features of their platform into these files, it probably did feel like a clean organization. And when I initially reviewed the code to evaluate using Magento, I also thought it was clean and was part of my choice to use it. The problem was that when you take something as complex as a full-featured e-commerce system and modularize it so thoroughly, you end up with a literal 7000 classes, and it becomes impossible to figure out the sequence of execution of a single page request through that massive tangle. Is it "clean code" if I have to add debugging print statements to 57 source files to figure out the path of execution that renders a single page? If I had to choose a circle of hell where I would edit Cyrus IMAP (the worst C code ever) for the rest of eternity, or edit Magento for the rest of eternity, I think I would actually choose Cyrus.
nicoburns 3y ago
> It's very opinionated It is and it isn't. It does opinionated ways of doing things. But IMO what makes it so great is just how easy it is to opt out of the opinions you don't like. Facades are an excellent example of this: don't want to use them? Well, you don't have to (and IMO a really big app that may be a good choice - in a small app it likely won't matter and you might as well use them).

frodowtf 3y ago

To me, "anti-pattern" has the same bogus meaning as "clean code"

zeroego 3y ago
That's an interesting take! I'm still early in my career and I ask with genuine curiosity, but why do you think "clean code" has a bogus meaning?
- spion 3y ago
  Not the OP, but clean code misses the point. Its is very subjective and depends on one person's previous experience and patterns they've been exposed to. "Reasonably readable" is what I strive for nowadays, and a key aspect is that I no longer think there is an objective measure for it. It depends on the team/company you're in, and its important to keep in mind that the goal is to effectively communicate the program to them.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- rjh29 3y ago
  I suggest you read malux85's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36371733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36371733
malux85 3y ago
Although at a high level many of things things are subjective, this take is almost entirely wrong in every dimension. Anti-patterns are things like using a wrong data structure, using the wrong levels of abstractions, tightly coupling components so they are not composable, leaky interfaces, god objects doing too much The strict definitions of many of these can be subjective at the edges, but they all objectively exist and cause fragility, instability, inflexibility and maintenance problems in the systems built from them. Clean code is code that’s easy to read, has the right level of abstractions, uses the right data structures and has the minimal possible anti-patterns in them (ideally zero!) above. Calling these things bogus is unfair, I grant they can be subjective in some places but they are prevalent in poorly designed systems especially by junior engineers. Wikipedia page on anti-patterns: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-patterns https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-patterns There are project management anti patterns too https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern Anti patterns are real. Clean code is real. If you cannot see that, I would suggest reading a lot more codebases from open source projects (pick medium and large codebases, not trivial programs) and after 10 or so you will see obvious structural and quality differences, as well as hundreds of anti patterns and examples of clean code.
- zeroego 3y ago
  This is a solid argument, thanks for taking the time to write this out!
- nrdvana 3y ago
  I'll agree with everything here except the clean code. Clean code is about optimizing human perception and there can't be a standard for that because humans think in a wide variety of ways and it's further impacted by the level of understanding the human already has on the subject matter the code is dealing with. One person's "clean code" can be another person's nightmare. I'll back this up with the example of Magento 1. It's a PHP e-commerce platform that has (at first glance) some of the cleanest code you'll ever see in PHP. It looked like the entire development team had come from a Java background. Every component was neatly divided into a PHP object with documented private and public methods. There was a clean MVC separation, with lots of shared behavior abstracted into "Helpers", and a Theme system handling the rendering of the front-end. I have no doubt that the authors of Magento prided themselves on how clean their code was. For them, having spent full-time careers structuring all the many features of their platform into these files, it probably did feel like a clean organization. And when I initially reviewed the code to evaluate using Magento, I also thought it was clean and was part of my choice to use it. The problem was that when you take something as complex as a full-featured e-commerce system and modularize it so thoroughly, you end up with a literal 7000 classes, and it becomes impossible to figure out the sequence of execution of a single page request through that massive tangle. Is it "clean code" if I have to add debugging print statements to 57 source files to figure out the path of execution that renders a single page? If I had to choose a circle of hell where I would edit Cyrus IMAP (the worst C code ever) for the rest of eternity, or edit Magento for the rest of eternity, I think I would actually choose Cyrus.

nicoburns 3y ago

> It's very opinionated It is and it isn't. It does opinionated ways of doing things. But IMO what makes it so great is just how easy it is to opt out of the opinions you don't like. Facades are an excellent example of this: don't want to use them? Well, you don't have to (and IMO a really big app that may be a good choice - in a small app it likely won't matter and you might as well use them).