6 ms·

> But 20 hours seems a worthwhile investment to me for something they will likely use for at least the next decade Yet most people just want to use VSCode and

by baby 3y ago

> But 20 hours seems a worthwhile investment to me for something they will likely use for at least the next decade Yet most people just want to use VSCode and don't want to invest 20+ hours learning emacs or vim

tuukkah 3y ago
Interestingly, the features of Emacs, Vim and VSCode are largely orthogonal (on top of any basic text editor). Further, a lot of people advocate using CLI instead of most VSCode features. Waiting for the holy grail, you can still learn from each: * Vim key bindings for text edits * CLI commands for Git * Emacs modes such as Magit and org-mode * VSCode for tight Typescript integration, nice block structure visualisation etc. I hope some editor will combine this all. (I think Emacs will be best placed to achieve this with its extension ecosystem that already includes Magit, org-mode, evil-mode etc.)
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  VS Code already has extensions for all that.
  - subsection1h 3y ago
    VS Code doesn't have anything comparable to Org mode. The "VS Code Org Mode" extension[1] has maybe 1% or 2% of the features of Org mode for Emacs. Go read Org mode's manual[2] from start to finish (134,062 words) and then direct us to an extension for VS Code that has comparable features (e.g., plain text spreadsheets). [1] https://github.com/vscode-org-mode/vscode-org-mode https://github.com/vscode-org-mode/vscode-org-mode [2] https://orgmode.org/org.html https://orgmode.org/org.html
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      Fair enough! I don't use it so wouldn't know.
    - baby 3y ago
      I've tried org mode several times and I think it's both overkill and not something most people would benefit from considering the time investment needed.
  - tuukkah 3y ago
    VSCode has a long list of me-too features and extensions but in my experience, not many are of great quality.
cassianoleal 3y ago
What's your point exactly? I spent a lot more than 20h learning emacs. It was my main editor for years. I use VS Code now. It serves me very well.
- qorrect 3y ago
  > I spent a lot more than 20h learning emacs. It was my main editor for years. Yeah same, are people saying 20h commitment is a lot now ? Not sure if I've gotten old, or if things are easier to learn now - but a 20h commitment seems like very lite.
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    (1) If I can spend 20 hours learning something boring or 20 minutes learning something else boring but they do the same thing I would prefer 20 minutes. (2) There are more tools to learn. That 20 hours/minutes is being multiplied by an ever growing number.
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      Thing is, git is pretty much everywhere. I don't think I've had a single job in the last 15 years or so where the client or employer wasn't using git. 20h to learn a tool that will be used daily for decades (yes, I expect this trend to go on for at least another 10-30 years), and the choice is not mine to make, is not much. I should say, if the choice was mine, I'd probably still choose git. It's powerful, it's something I can already make really good use, and I feel comfortable easing new people into it. Regardless, the point is that I don't have that choice as an individual who's part of a team or an organisation. On the other hand, I can choose my code editor without interfering with my fellow engineers's own choices. Here I chose the one I could learn in 20 minutes and get better the more I used it. It took me very little time to get productive with VS Code, and then a few more days to get used to most shortcuts I use. Everything else is accessible via the command palette and more shortcuts can be learned as their functions become used more frequently. Until that, the palette is an excellent interface. It also serves as a discovery mechanism for features. With emacs I had to learn a lot before I started getting productive. I got very good at it. Multiple cursors, window jockeying, buffer wrangling, the works. Any functionality that fell in disuse for some time, I'd risk forgetting their shortcuts. If I did, the only way to use it would be to somehow remember the shortcuts, probably by interrupting work and googling, or by trying to navigate its archaic menu systems. With vim it's not very different. I still use it more or less daily but mostly for single file editing over SSH, since even if I need to do more complex editing on a remote server, I can use my local VS Code. I don't think people have to use VS Code. I work daily with other engineers who use it, but also any of the Intellij editors, vim, emacs, you name it. We can all live in harmony and collaborate just fine. Not so much if each would chose their own VCS.
KronisLV 3y ago
> Yet most people just want to use VSCode and don't want to invest 20+ hours learning emacs or vim To expand upon this, for version control there are pieces of GUI software that can allow you to handle the typical workflows without touching the CLI. Packages like Git Cola, GitKraken and functionality that's bundled with most IDEs as well. In addition there are also platforms like GitHub, GitLab and Gitea which will let you easily get changes merged across branches with either a single commit or different strategies, all with the press of a button. I don't think that there is a reason for everyone to do a deep dive into Git, aside from their own curiosity, or when using complex workflows.
SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
"EMACS is not hard, you can learn it in a day… Every day."[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urcL86UpqZc&t=325s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urcL86UpqZc&t=325s
- GeorgeTirebiter 3y ago
  The thing I like about Emacs is: there is always another 'prestige level' for you to strive for, because you will never master everything. You get better, and better, and better ... positive feedback, increasing ability to get stuff done. win win.
tredre3 3y ago
I used vim for 30 years by now, 15 of those it was my main text editor/IDE-like. I was one of those who would spend hours on achieving the perfect configuration and mix of scripts. I was one of those who thought smugly "I'm so much more productive than those idiots using Eclipse or Sublime". But you know what? I moved to VS Code a few years ago and my productivity only increased. Everything is more intuitive and discoverable. Everything just works with no tweaking. All the convoluted macros and text manips I painstakingly crafted and memorized in vim are achievable in a few clicks in Code. Spending 20+ hours learning emacs or vim is quite literally a waste, it's time we all admit it. (I still think one should learn the basic cursor keys and how to save/quit in vi because sooner or later you'll have to edit something on a remote server with only vi. But learning emacs is still completely useless, though.)
- codr7 3y ago
  Not at all. There's nothing out there as configurable and portable as Emacs. Easier, sure.
  - tombert 3y ago
    I don't disagree, but I think a followup question would be "how configurable do you really need your text editor to be?" Don't get me wrong, I'm all for tinkering with stuff and customizing to oblivion, it's fun and cool, but realistically how much better of a JS engineer are you going to be if you've customized the hell out of Emacs? Maybe a bit more, I'll concede that, but fundamentally I don't think it's going to be categorical.
    - codr7 3y ago
      I have no idea, I'm a software developer, I write code in whatever language I need to and Emacs is always there to support me.
- subsection1h 3y ago
  > Spending 20+ hours learning emacs or vim is quite literally a waste, it's time we all admit it. For me, with my ability to learn at the rate that I do, Emacs provides the best solutions for Git (Magit), email (mu4e), calendar (Org), to-do lists (Org), note taking (Org) and more. And I don't use software like mu4e because I already use Emacs; I use it because I have installed and evaluated dozens of email clients over the years and concluded that mu4e is the best for me given my requirements. For people who aren't as particular about the software they use, Emacs may very well be "quite literally a waste".
tikhonj 3y ago
That doesn't mean that learning Emacs would not be worthwhile, it just means people don't do it.
tombert 3y ago
I've been using Vim (well, neovim now) for a long time, it's my primary editor, and I think I'm reasonably good with it, but I really don't think I'm appreciably more productive than the average VS Code user.

by baby 3y ago

tuukkah 3y ago

Interestingly, the features of Emacs, Vim and VSCode are largely orthogonal (on top of any basic text editor). Further, a lot of people advocate using CLI instead of most VSCode features. Waiting for the holy grail, you can still learn from each: * Vim key bindings for text edits * CLI commands for Git * Emacs modes such as Magit and org-mode * VSCode for tight Typescript integration, nice block structure visualisation etc. I hope some editor will combine this all. (I think Emacs will be best placed to achieve this with its extension ecosystem that already includes Magit, org-mode, evil-mode etc.)

cassianoleal 3y ago
VS Code already has extensions for all that.
- subsection1h 3y ago
  VS Code doesn't have anything comparable to Org mode. The "VS Code Org Mode" extension[1] has maybe 1% or 2% of the features of Org mode for Emacs. Go read Org mode's manual[2] from start to finish (134,062 words) and then direct us to an extension for VS Code that has comparable features (e.g., plain text spreadsheets). [1] https://github.com/vscode-org-mode/vscode-org-mode https://github.com/vscode-org-mode/vscode-org-mode [2] https://orgmode.org/org.html https://orgmode.org/org.html
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    Fair enough! I don't use it so wouldn't know.
  - baby 3y ago
    I've tried org mode several times and I think it's both overkill and not something most people would benefit from considering the time investment needed.
- tuukkah 3y ago
  VSCode has a long list of me-too features and extensions but in my experience, not many are of great quality.

cassianoleal 3y ago

What's your point exactly? I spent a lot more than 20h learning emacs. It was my main editor for years. I use VS Code now. It serves me very well.

qorrect 3y ago
> I spent a lot more than 20h learning emacs. It was my main editor for years. Yeah same, are people saying 20h commitment is a lot now ? Not sure if I've gotten old, or if things are easier to learn now - but a 20h commitment seems like very lite.
- HWR_14 3y ago
  (1) If I can spend 20 hours learning something boring or 20 minutes learning something else boring but they do the same thing I would prefer 20 minutes. (2) There are more tools to learn. That 20 hours/minutes is being multiplied by an ever growing number.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    Thing is, git is pretty much everywhere. I don't think I've had a single job in the last 15 years or so where the client or employer wasn't using git. 20h to learn a tool that will be used daily for decades (yes, I expect this trend to go on for at least another 10-30 years), and the choice is not mine to make, is not much. I should say, if the choice was mine, I'd probably still choose git. It's powerful, it's something I can already make really good use, and I feel comfortable easing new people into it. Regardless, the point is that I don't have that choice as an individual who's part of a team or an organisation. On the other hand, I can choose my code editor without interfering with my fellow engineers's own choices. Here I chose the one I could learn in 20 minutes and get better the more I used it. It took me very little time to get productive with VS Code, and then a few more days to get used to most shortcuts I use. Everything else is accessible via the command palette and more shortcuts can be learned as their functions become used more frequently. Until that, the palette is an excellent interface. It also serves as a discovery mechanism for features. With emacs I had to learn a lot before I started getting productive. I got very good at it. Multiple cursors, window jockeying, buffer wrangling, the works. Any functionality that fell in disuse for some time, I'd risk forgetting their shortcuts. If I did, the only way to use it would be to somehow remember the shortcuts, probably by interrupting work and googling, or by trying to navigate its archaic menu systems. With vim it's not very different. I still use it more or less daily but mostly for single file editing over SSH, since even if I need to do more complex editing on a remote server, I can use my local VS Code. I don't think people have to use VS Code. I work daily with other engineers who use it, but also any of the Intellij editors, vim, emacs, you name it. We can all live in harmony and collaborate just fine. Not so much if each would chose their own VCS.

KronisLV 3y ago

> Yet most people just want to use VSCode and don't want to invest 20+ hours learning emacs or vim To expand upon this, for version control there are pieces of GUI software that can allow you to handle the typical workflows without touching the CLI. Packages like Git Cola, GitKraken and functionality that's bundled with most IDEs as well. In addition there are also platforms like GitHub, GitLab and Gitea which will let you easily get changes merged across branches with either a single commit or different strategies, all with the press of a button. I don't think that there is a reason for everyone to do a deep dive into Git, aside from their own curiosity, or when using complex workflows.

SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago

"EMACS is not hard, you can learn it in a day… Every day."[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urcL86UpqZc&t=325s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urcL86UpqZc&t=325s

GeorgeTirebiter 3y ago
The thing I like about Emacs is: there is always another 'prestige level' for you to strive for, because you will never master everything. You get better, and better, and better ... positive feedback, increasing ability to get stuff done. win win.

tredre3 3y ago

I used vim for 30 years by now, 15 of those it was my main text editor/IDE-like. I was one of those who would spend hours on achieving the perfect configuration and mix of scripts. I was one of those who thought smugly "I'm so much more productive than those idiots using Eclipse or Sublime". But you know what? I moved to VS Code a few years ago and my productivity only increased. Everything is more intuitive and discoverable. Everything just works with no tweaking. All the convoluted macros and text manips I painstakingly crafted and memorized in vim are achievable in a few clicks in Code. Spending 20+ hours learning emacs or vim is quite literally a waste, it's time we all admit it. (I still think one should learn the basic cursor keys and how to save/quit in vi because sooner or later you'll have to edit something on a remote server with only vi. But learning emacs is still completely useless, though.)

codr7 3y ago
Not at all. There's nothing out there as configurable and portable as Emacs. Easier, sure.
- tombert 3y ago
  I don't disagree, but I think a followup question would be "how configurable do you really need your text editor to be?" Don't get me wrong, I'm all for tinkering with stuff and customizing to oblivion, it's fun and cool, but realistically how much better of a JS engineer are you going to be if you've customized the hell out of Emacs? Maybe a bit more, I'll concede that, but fundamentally I don't think it's going to be categorical.
  - codr7 3y ago
    I have no idea, I'm a software developer, I write code in whatever language I need to and Emacs is always there to support me.
subsection1h 3y ago
> Spending 20+ hours learning emacs or vim is quite literally a waste, it's time we all admit it. For me, with my ability to learn at the rate that I do, Emacs provides the best solutions for Git (Magit), email (mu4e), calendar (Org), to-do lists (Org), note taking (Org) and more. And I don't use software like mu4e because I already use Emacs; I use it because I have installed and evaluated dozens of email clients over the years and concluded that mu4e is the best for me given my requirements. For people who aren't as particular about the software they use, Emacs may very well be "quite literally a waste".

tikhonj 3y ago

That doesn't mean that learning Emacs would not be worthwhile, it just means people don't do it.

tombert 3y ago

I've been using Vim (well, neovim now) for a long time, it's my primary editor, and I think I'm reasonably good with it, but I really don't think I'm appreciably more productive than the average VS Code user.