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The emergence of some of the planet's most awful and long-lived dictatorships, you mean. Which completely betrayed the national liberation struggles from which

The emergence of some of the planet's most awful and long-lived dictatorships, you mean. Which completely betrayed the national liberation struggles from which they emerged. I suggest you try visiting some of these countries sometime. Or at least talk a few people who actually grew up there. You might learn something.

medo-bear 3y ago
So, for example, I grew up in a place that would never have gotten rid of Nazism had it not been for the Soviet Union. Sure we had a dictatorship afterwards and life was hard in a lot of ways, but it was nothing like what you were probably told and definitely an improvement on what was there before that system came
- lisasays 3y ago
  Nothing like what you were probably told Hmm -- this really is quite a presumptuous (and basically highly obnoxious) attitude to take. But if you want to go on believing that people who don't echo the same set of coded beliefs as yourself -- do so because they are unread, have no direct knowledge of these countries, are brainwashed by the media or the education system or whatever -- that's up to you. A place that would never have gotten rid of Nazism had it not been for the Soviet Union. "Never" is rather doubtful, and bordering on science fiction (given what we know about unstable the Reich was in reality). The "hero" view of the Soviets' allegedly overwhelming contribution to overall war effort is also not something that follows from any balanced view of the historical record. But what we do know from the historical record -- is that most of these places likely never would have been invaded in the first place, had Stalin not greenlighted Hitler's plans via a certain famous agreement in 1939.
  - medo-bear 3y ago
    > "Never" is rather doubtful, and bordering on science fiction (given what we know about unstable the Reich was in reality). The "hero" view of the Soviets' allegedly overwhelming contribution to overall war effort is also not something that follows from any balanced view of the historical record. How about fighting 70% of the Wehrmacht. Read about the Eastern Front instead of just watching Saving Private Ryan :) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II) > But what we do know from the historical record -- is that most of these places likely never would have been invaded in the first place, had Stalin not greenlighted Hitler's plans via a certain famous agreement in 1939. What often doesn't get mentioned in history classes is that before the infamous Stalin-Hitler pact, USSR tried to obtain a military pact with the West and that the West prologned the signing of any such agreements. Some even say that the Western powers (UK especially) hoped that Hitler would only focus his effort to the East and in that way deal with the rise of worldwide communist movement. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/322...
    - thodin 3y ago
      Russia wanted West to approve it's greed to get additional territories. Only Hitler was ready to sign such agreements. So Stalin went to Hitler. He was really mad guy, paranoid, former gangster.
      - medo-bear 3y ago
        > Russia wanted West to approve it's greed to get additional territories USSR != Russia > Only Hitler was ready to sign such agreements. Im pretty sure Austrians, Czechs and Slovaks would disagree > former gangster Maybe he was just street smart :)
        medo-bear 3y ago
        > Im pretty sure Austrians, Czechs and Slovaks would disagree https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
    - lisasays 3y ago
      USSR tried to obtain a military pact with the West and that the West prologned the signing of any such agreements. Oh, boo-hoo. And (just as with its successor state today), its feelings were sooo hurt, it just had to steamroll over those decadent neighboring countries (that should have known better than to be situated on its doorstep anyway). And accidentally deport a good chunk of their population to a place with low survival rates. And accidentally dig those holes in the forest that 22,000 civilians and former military personnel just happened to fall into. USSR was not the same as Russia In terms of whose overall interests it was serving -- of course it was.
      - medo-bear 3y ago
        great comeback mate :)

medo-bear 3y ago

So, for example, I grew up in a place that would never have gotten rid of Nazism had it not been for the Soviet Union. Sure we had a dictatorship afterwards and life was hard in a lot of ways, but it was nothing like what you were probably told and definitely an improvement on what was there before that system came

lisasays 3y ago
Nothing like what you were probably told Hmm -- this really is quite a presumptuous (and basically highly obnoxious) attitude to take. But if you want to go on believing that people who don't echo the same set of coded beliefs as yourself -- do so because they are unread, have no direct knowledge of these countries, are brainwashed by the media or the education system or whatever -- that's up to you. A place that would never have gotten rid of Nazism had it not been for the Soviet Union. "Never" is rather doubtful, and bordering on science fiction (given what we know about unstable the Reich was in reality). The "hero" view of the Soviets' allegedly overwhelming contribution to overall war effort is also not something that follows from any balanced view of the historical record. But what we do know from the historical record -- is that most of these places likely never would have been invaded in the first place, had Stalin not greenlighted Hitler's plans via a certain famous agreement in 1939.
- medo-bear 3y ago
  > "Never" is rather doubtful, and bordering on science fiction (given what we know about unstable the Reich was in reality). The "hero" view of the Soviets' allegedly overwhelming contribution to overall war effort is also not something that follows from any balanced view of the historical record. How about fighting 70% of the Wehrmacht. Read about the Eastern Front instead of just watching Saving Private Ryan :) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II) > But what we do know from the historical record -- is that most of these places likely never would have been invaded in the first place, had Stalin not greenlighted Hitler's plans via a certain famous agreement in 1939. What often doesn't get mentioned in history classes is that before the infamous Stalin-Hitler pact, USSR tried to obtain a military pact with the West and that the West prologned the signing of any such agreements. Some even say that the Western powers (UK especially) hoped that Hitler would only focus his effort to the East and in that way deal with the rise of worldwide communist movement. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/322...
  - thodin 3y ago
    Russia wanted West to approve it's greed to get additional territories. Only Hitler was ready to sign such agreements. So Stalin went to Hitler. He was really mad guy, paranoid, former gangster.
    - medo-bear 3y ago
      > Russia wanted West to approve it's greed to get additional territories USSR != Russia > Only Hitler was ready to sign such agreements. Im pretty sure Austrians, Czechs and Slovaks would disagree > former gangster Maybe he was just street smart :)
      - medo-bear 3y ago
        > Im pretty sure Austrians, Czechs and Slovaks would disagree https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
  - lisasays 3y ago
    USSR tried to obtain a military pact with the West and that the West prologned the signing of any such agreements. Oh, boo-hoo. And (just as with its successor state today), its feelings were sooo hurt, it just had to steamroll over those decadent neighboring countries (that should have known better than to be situated on its doorstep anyway). And accidentally deport a good chunk of their population to a place with low survival rates. And accidentally dig those holes in the forest that 22,000 civilians and former military personnel just happened to fall into. USSR was not the same as Russia In terms of whose overall interests it was serving -- of course it was.
    - medo-bear 3y ago
      great comeback mate :)