7 ms·

> The fact that the students appeared to internalize the false events to the extent that they did highlights the fundamental malleability of memory This seems

by yosito 3y ago

> The fact that the students appeared to internalize the false events to the extent that they did highlights the fundamental malleability of memory This seems like a bit of a leap to assume that this is about malleability rather than just lying to researchers and saying what they feel is expected. I could very easily imagine myself playing along with someone trying to convince me of false memories just because I don't want to put up a fight against someone who is gaslighting me. Speaking of which, how is gaslighting students considered ethical research?

emodendroket 3y ago
Well this is just the latest of many studies suggesting memory is extremely malleable and suggestible.
- canjobear 3y ago
  If the studies are based on asking people if they remember the false event, they are susceptible to the same critique.
  - tzs 3y ago
    I recall studies (...unless my recollection is a false memory!) where the subjects didn't know they were in an experiment. For example in one I remember the researchers got the parents and older adult siblings at a family gathering to start talking about funny things that happened when the kids were growing up. That included a made up story about when they went to one of the younger adult siblings' third grade school play, where something funny happened involving him. Much later the researchers managed to arrange for that person to end up in a conversation that turned to elementary school plays, and that person on their own brought up their third grade play and the funny incident, and even added details that were not in the story told at the gathering. When I said the story was made up, I didn't mean that what was made up was that something funny happened to him during the play. In fact his third grade class never had a play, nor did any of his other elementary school classes. Nor he did he attend any class plays from other classes.
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    Some do; others involve more subtle tricks like having subjects watch a video of a car crash, then using different wording a week later to ask them about details of the video (to spoil the surprise, the wording of the questions significantly alters recollection of what happened in the video).
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    So is the legal justice system, witness testimony, job interviews, etc. It does not matter if they lied, if lies are indistringyishable from truth. The conclusion holds.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Strong bias on HN about replication. But the ability to implant false memories has been widely researched and replicated. This isn't a stretch. Memory is very fallible.
- ackbar03 3y ago
  Exactly. Leonardo Dicaprio did it
Timon3 3y ago
How would you propose we differentiate between students "playing along" and students really having false memories? Couldn't I discard any psychological study by saying "well, the participants could have faked it", since it's by definition not falsifiable (any test could also be faked)?
- canjobear 3y ago
  You should indeed be extremely skeptical of studies whose only dependent variable is a voluntary participant response and where the participant has an incentive to tell the experimenter what they think they want to hear (for example, to make the experiment end faster).
  - kenjackson 3y ago
    Except in this case for the follow up interviews there was no incentive to lie.
    - canjobear 3y ago
      They’re incentivized to tell the experimenters what they want to hear so they can get paid and go home faster.
      - somenameforme 3y ago
        Having participated in plenty of these (as it was required for class credit, and they also paid reasonably well for an in-between classes hour type thing to go do), the 'researchers' can also be completely obnoxious. One study I was involved in had me listen to some rant about how women do better on a math exam I was about to take, being left in a room for about 10 minutes alone, and then being given the exam - on pink paper. It was generic algebra 2 / SAT level test. After the exam the researchers just endlessly hounded me from a hundred different angles trying to get me to express doubt or uncertainty in how I performed on it. If I just wanted my $20 and credit, it would have been far easier to just give them what they wanted. But I've been ever the contrarian. They also said they'd email me my results in 8 weeks. They did not. I've always wondered if I ended up getting culled from their 'study' as an 'outlier.'
iudqnolq 3y ago
I'm sure many of us have experienced the effect where you're having an argument with someone where it doesn't really matter and the other person agrees with you to shut you up.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
It is impossible to discuss Psychology on HN. I think STEM type personalities are incapable of fathoming that the mind can be studied. I tend to think that the STEM personality has a lower than average ability for self-reflection, and thus they still think the mind is a mysterious phenomena that is beyond science. They aren't able to observe their own minds, and thus think it is impossible for anybody else to either.
- andrewflnr 3y ago
  Uh, no, HN is perennially fascinated with the mind, and grabs up any verifiable bits of information it can. That's why we've been exposed to all the myriad ways the mind is genuinely hard to study. We've seen the rise and fall of lots of studies, some plausible, some not, and we're tired of being conned on something important to us.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    That is a lot more even minded opinion on it that I've seen in the last few weeks. Typically Psychology is called a pseudoscience, garbage, a-kin to astrology, filled with out right liars, conmen. There is very little patience to let the scientific process work itself out. Somehow other fields are allowed to grow, but Psychology is judged very harshly. Some studies aren't able to be replicated, so the whole field is bad. At least, that is what I've seen in last few weeks. Maybe it hasn't always been like this.
    - andrewflnr 3y ago
      > we're tired of being conned on something important to us. Sorry, but psychology as a field is in fact full of BS; probably not outright lies, but shoddy science. It's treated harshly compared to other fields because it cannot live up to the same standards they do, even considering times when those fields screw up badly. It's not a recent thing, either. The replication crisis is old, and I haven't seen any indication that the field has put any effort into deciding to "grow". I haven't noticed a change in HN's attitude either, but maybe that's because I don't tend to bother with those threads anymore.

by yosito 3y ago

emodendroket 3y ago

Well this is just the latest of many studies suggesting memory is extremely malleable and suggestible.

canjobear 3y ago
If the studies are based on asking people if they remember the false event, they are susceptible to the same critique.
- tzs 3y ago
  I recall studies (...unless my recollection is a false memory!) where the subjects didn't know they were in an experiment. For example in one I remember the researchers got the parents and older adult siblings at a family gathering to start talking about funny things that happened when the kids were growing up. That included a made up story about when they went to one of the younger adult siblings' third grade school play, where something funny happened involving him. Much later the researchers managed to arrange for that person to end up in a conversation that turned to elementary school plays, and that person on their own brought up their third grade play and the funny incident, and even added details that were not in the story told at the gathering. When I said the story was made up, I didn't mean that what was made up was that something funny happened to him during the play. In fact his third grade class never had a play, nor did any of his other elementary school classes. Nor he did he attend any class plays from other classes.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  Some do; others involve more subtle tricks like having subjects watch a video of a car crash, then using different wording a week later to ask them about details of the video (to spoil the surprise, the wording of the questions significantly alters recollection of what happened in the video).
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  So is the legal justice system, witness testimony, job interviews, etc. It does not matter if they lied, if lies are indistringyishable from truth. The conclusion holds.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

Strong bias on HN about replication. But the ability to implant false memories has been widely researched and replicated. This isn't a stretch. Memory is very fallible.

ackbar03 3y ago
Exactly. Leonardo Dicaprio did it

Timon3 3y ago

How would you propose we differentiate between students "playing along" and students really having false memories? Couldn't I discard any psychological study by saying "well, the participants could have faked it", since it's by definition not falsifiable (any test could also be faked)?

canjobear 3y ago
You should indeed be extremely skeptical of studies whose only dependent variable is a voluntary participant response and where the participant has an incentive to tell the experimenter what they think they want to hear (for example, to make the experiment end faster).
- kenjackson 3y ago
  Except in this case for the follow up interviews there was no incentive to lie.
  - canjobear 3y ago
    They’re incentivized to tell the experimenters what they want to hear so they can get paid and go home faster.
    - somenameforme 3y ago
      Having participated in plenty of these (as it was required for class credit, and they also paid reasonably well for an in-between classes hour type thing to go do), the 'researchers' can also be completely obnoxious. One study I was involved in had me listen to some rant about how women do better on a math exam I was about to take, being left in a room for about 10 minutes alone, and then being given the exam - on pink paper. It was generic algebra 2 / SAT level test. After the exam the researchers just endlessly hounded me from a hundred different angles trying to get me to express doubt or uncertainty in how I performed on it. If I just wanted my $20 and credit, it would have been far easier to just give them what they wanted. But I've been ever the contrarian. They also said they'd email me my results in 8 weeks. They did not. I've always wondered if I ended up getting culled from their 'study' as an 'outlier.'

iudqnolq 3y ago

I'm sure many of us have experienced the effect where you're having an argument with someone where it doesn't really matter and the other person agrees with you to shut you up.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

It is impossible to discuss Psychology on HN. I think STEM type personalities are incapable of fathoming that the mind can be studied. I tend to think that the STEM personality has a lower than average ability for self-reflection, and thus they still think the mind is a mysterious phenomena that is beyond science. They aren't able to observe their own minds, and thus think it is impossible for anybody else to either.

andrewflnr 3y ago
Uh, no, HN is perennially fascinated with the mind, and grabs up any verifiable bits of information it can. That's why we've been exposed to all the myriad ways the mind is genuinely hard to study. We've seen the rise and fall of lots of studies, some plausible, some not, and we're tired of being conned on something important to us.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  That is a lot more even minded opinion on it that I've seen in the last few weeks. Typically Psychology is called a pseudoscience, garbage, a-kin to astrology, filled with out right liars, conmen. There is very little patience to let the scientific process work itself out. Somehow other fields are allowed to grow, but Psychology is judged very harshly. Some studies aren't able to be replicated, so the whole field is bad. At least, that is what I've seen in last few weeks. Maybe it hasn't always been like this.
  - andrewflnr 3y ago
    > we're tired of being conned on something important to us. Sorry, but psychology as a field is in fact full of BS; probably not outright lies, but shoddy science. It's treated harshly compared to other fields because it cannot live up to the same standards they do, even considering times when those fields screw up badly. It's not a recent thing, either. The replication crisis is old, and I haven't seen any indication that the field has put any effort into deciding to "grow". I haven't noticed a change in HN's attitude either, but maybe that's because I don't tend to bother with those threads anymore.