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> If that number is correct, the FSBO market is twice the size of the largest real estate company. That's the most apples & oranges thing I've read in a long t

> If that number is correct, the FSBO market is twice the size of the largest real estate company. That's the most apples & oranges thing I've read in a long time I recently used a real listing agent that I paid a flat fee of $500 to and they got the listing on the MLS given I filled out the forms and provided pictures (hired a photographer for $200). I was fine just having the MLS as the marketing vehicle as buyer's would find it without any marketing at all. It worked and saved 6%-$700 which on this particular property was about $35,000. (Oh I did do my own negotiating as a seller, but they offered to do that for an added flat $ fee that I don't remember) I think that's the model for this. Don't try to create a FSBO market, try to find a RE agent that does above in every market and create a network of that type of service. Then you can skim a fee off at some point from either the agent, seller, buyer, or anyone else.

mlrtime 3y ago
How did you avoid paying the 3% (In your example) buyers fee? Did you just refuse to work with any agents? For most people this will not work.
- cj 3y ago
  If they're on MLS, they'll be on Zillow. Buyers these days do a lot of their own searching. If a buyer finds the listing on Zillow via MLS, it won't stop them from viewing the house even if they have an agent. Once they view the house, the owner could convince them to ditch the agent. I mean honestly, what does the average agent do for a client? Not very much.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    This matches my experience as a buyer as well. It won’t get you 100% of the buyers, but it will get you way over 50% and likely over 75%. If I was working with an agent, I’m sure they’d discourage me from that listing, but as a seller in a reasonable market, I’m willing to give up a few possible buyers to save 5-6% on a 7-figure transaction. (I’ve also seen FSBOs that offer X% to buyer agents.) I will say that agents did do some work to make the transaction complete on both of my house purchases. Negotiations after the inspection can be tense and a good agent can help both sides get to the closing table.
    - montgomster 3y ago
      PropBox would be very happy with buyers at 50 percent of the market. PropBox believes that there are good agents but there are way too many not so good agents. It is hard to distinguish what kind of agent you have until you start working with them.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        > way too many not so good agents This is exactly my experience. In shopping for my first house, I had a clear idea of what I wanted and a budget that matched that and the first four agents I worked with were nearly useless. (This was before web-MLS was a thing.) The fifth was a breath of fresh air and I would happily use them again.
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      Are you saving 5-6% but selling at 10% less than you could? In some markets bidding wars are common. The extra 25-50% of bidders pushes up the price usually worth more than 5%
    - montgomster 3y ago
      sokoloff, on the point about the second negotiation on the inspection. The industry has this backwards. We recommend the per-purchase inspection for several reasons. 1. It takes the liability away from the seller stating what the condition is and moves it to the inspector. 2. by sharing it with the buyer before they make an offer you save them a bit of money, earn some trust as showing transparency, and 3. eliminating the stress of the second negotiation 10 days before closing and no one is available to fix a problem. You are making your home easier to buy. The easier you make it for the buyer, the faster you will sell and the better your price will be. Most buyers want a home in great condition.
  - montgomster 3y ago
    Your observation is right on. The industry believes they perform a valuable service. PopBox believes that technology has already changed the playing field. Real estate agents job description, work environment, and compensation will change. Today they work in a 100 year old, inefficient system. PropBox uses technology to do the same work, with the customers help faster, easier and much more efficiently. This standardization and efficient process drives cost way down, and gives the customer what they want, a fast, simple, easy to use tool that puts them in control. Technology allows consumers to access the same information as the agent. This fact devalues the service, but has done little to devalue the price. We are hopeful enough customers recognize this and will save significant money with 10 to 12 hours of their time. If our test market hours of work hold up as we grow, our customers will save two thousand to six thousand dollars per hour. The customers success is our success.
    - montgomster 3y ago
      PropBox is not a real estate company. PropBox is a tech enabled platform that sells an ad to home sellers. It is a uniquely designed ad that offers options, not advice, to home sellers and buyers. We believe consumers of real estate are smart and when they have the options in front of them can chose which one is best.
      - conductr 3y ago
        It appears as if PropBox has no users/listings.
        montgomster 3y ago
        Hello, Conductr. We now have one in Denver, and one waiting for a photographer on Seattle. The Seattle person is in this thread. He has a two million dollar home. If he is right, and the home sells, he will save $100K. Several more assking questions. We didn't expect to have any for a month or two. It will ramp up, slowly at first, tben begin to accelerate and scale. Hopefully. Doing a few things behind the scenes to throw a little gas on the fire.
  - judge2020 3y ago
    > Once they view the house, the owner could convince them to ditch the agent. I mean honestly, what does the average agent do for a client? Not very much. Most Buyer Agency agreements operate on the basis of "if we show a house to you, and you buy it, we are owed a commission regardless of if you terminate the agreement afterwards". Now, typically a real estate agent isn't about to sue their clients if they purchase FSBO, since that would mean suing them for a 2.5 or 3% commission the seller wasn't even offering to the buyer agent, but it does mean that you can't get agent 1 to show a house, then switch to another agent, without agent 1 getting paid.
    - cj 3y ago
      Even if someone was driving by and pulled in the driveway and saw the house without the agent present? Do buyer agent agreements require you buy a house through them even if you find the house and view the house and negotiate the price with the seller yourself? (I’ve never relied on an agent for these things, I did everything myself when buying my first/only house)
      - judge2020 3y ago
        Some have exclusivity agreements that require that, but they're pretty unpopular (because it's also intimidating for a buyer to sign). What I described is a non-exclusive showing agreements, where they only get compensation if they helped in showing the house or completing the transaction (like drafting the contracts).
      - montgomster 3y ago
        In my state if you sign a buyer agency agreement, describe the property you are looking for and it is dated. You are obligated to pay in most situations. If you can prove abandonment you can likely get off the hook. Every state has their own laws and rules so be certain know what those laws and rules are. Also read the contract carefully. In my state there is a clause that if the listing broker doesn't pay the buyer agent, or doesn't pay enough to satisfy your fee, you are obligated to pay. I never liked that sentence. Thanks for your questions
    - 3y ago
- montgomster 3y ago
  Excellent question. PropBox is not a real estate company. It is a technically advanced media/advertising company that is specializing in advertising homes. The seller purchases an ad for a dedicated web page that benefits the seller and the buyer. They are in control, they make all the decisions, and they do all the work. A buyer can pay a buyer agent, a seller can choose to go a different route. We are not listing homes. We believe many home buyers and sellers are looking for an alternative to the the two choices that were available until we launched yesterday. Now there is a third choice, PropBox. A platform that provides both parties the same information and allows them to work directly together. We believe some customers will like the ease of use, the ability to speak with the seller who knows more about the house than any agent, and much more. Both parties will like the ability to better control and easily communicate with each other within the platform. PropBox is not avoiding the 3%, the customer is avoiding the 3%. I hope this answers your question. Thank you for asking.
  - Dwolb 3y ago
    Your marketing copy should communicate this. >PropBox is not a real estate company. It is a technically advanced media/advertising company that is specializing in advertising homes. The seller purchases an ad for a dedicated web page that benefits the seller and the buyer. 1) What PropBox is in simple terms the customer would use. 2) How it works (from the customer perspective).
    - montgomster 3y ago
      Wow. This is very helpful. Thank you.
      - Dwolb 3y ago
        Glad I could help! Good luck on your journey.
        montgomster 3y ago
        Thank you.
- conductr 3y ago
  Where I am at least, the 3% x2 commissions are just a customary commission share. Technically the listing agent charges whatever they want and shares whatever they want. Usually they charge 6% and share half. But there no obligation to offer buyers commission on the MLS listing. I put 0%. I felt like being on the MLS would sort this out, most shoppers would see the listing regardless and their agent can decide what to do at that point (I'd bet they'd show it if the buyer was interested)
montgomster 3y ago
Thank you for your thorough explanation on your experience. While I appreciate your sharing I come from a different perspective in that you were the customer and I was the service provider. I recently wrote a column that explains my role and a major consideration as to why I have undertaken this project.[1] Please check it out from an insiders perspective. It is always helpful. A mentor once told me "First seek to understand, then be understood."[1]https://dearmonty.com/selling-and-buying-a-home-today-is-easy/ https://dearmonty.com/selling-and-buying-a-home-today-is-eas...
windexh8er 3y ago
On the flip side I purchased my last home with a lawyer who's also a real estate agent. They only represent the buyer and provide all services for a flat fee that's tiered on the home price. It doesn't fix the Realtor problem with insane fees and idiotic sales tactics. But it allowed me to buy my home with far less out-of-pocket and at the end they handed me a 5-figure check as a rebate. This would have been his insane commission for doing very little. I don't understand how people still are just giving their money away to "Realtors" who, ultimately, unlock doors. The majority can't actually read or understand a contract (I sued Redfin because a Realtor working for them lost my earnest money when they failed to understand something as simple as a date), very few of them actually know anything about a home or what to look for and finally, these days, most buyers do 90%+ of the work to find the home they want. Do most people use travel agents anymore? Why use a Realtor?
- judge2020 3y ago
  > Why use a Realtor? Just to inquire, do you mean Realtor® or just a salesperson/agent? Any salesperson/agent can get their license by taking a short training course, and can then subscribe to lead websites like Zillow etc. But becoming a Realtor is at least a bit more commitment to knowing how real estate actually works and advising your client on good decisions, in addition to being bound by the Realtor code of ethics. https://www.nar.realtor/about-nar/when-is-a-real-estate-agent-a-realtor https://www.nar.realtor/about-nar/when-is-a-real-estate-agen...
  - windexh8er 3y ago
    I'm sorry but the Realtor code of ethics is BS. I've read what Realtors are bound by and I've found those folks doing shady things. Like a common practice is for a Realtor to not mark a property as pending before it goes contingent. This allows the Realtor to pretend to potential clients that the property is still for sale and can drag it out in case something like an inspection causes the pending buyers to back out. I found one Realtor in my area that never issued a Pending update to any of his properties and submitted it to the Realtors Association as abuse. In their own language an agent has to update the status within, last I checked, 48 hours. They completely ignored me. When I brought up sharing this with local news outlets as a common, and shady, practice they said they would "look into it". They never responded beyond that. Being a Realtor doesn't mean you know anything about legal contracts or are able to inspect a home properly. It's a self serving organization that's sole focus is on revenue. Not the buyer and not the seller. There's very little, if any good that organization brings to market - that is unless you're a fan of monopolistic organizations that will do anything to keep out competition.
montgomster 3y ago
Thank you for your feedback. There are many people that have a different opinion. WE can start with the 500k fsbos in 2022. But there are other folks like the college investor[1] that has done some research and wrote about it on a blog. You may be right. To the best of our knowledge no one has built a product like PropBox to tackle it. Lots of startups fail for a variety of reasons and we are aware that it is way to early to know if we will be a victor or a victim. Only time will tell.[1]https://thecollegeinvestor.com/9084/real-estate-agents-anymore/ https://thecollegeinvestor.com/9084/real-estate-agents-anymo...

mlrtime 3y ago

How did you avoid paying the 3% (In your example) buyers fee? Did you just refuse to work with any agents? For most people this will not work.

cj 3y ago
If they're on MLS, they'll be on Zillow. Buyers these days do a lot of their own searching. If a buyer finds the listing on Zillow via MLS, it won't stop them from viewing the house even if they have an agent. Once they view the house, the owner could convince them to ditch the agent. I mean honestly, what does the average agent do for a client? Not very much.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  This matches my experience as a buyer as well. It won’t get you 100% of the buyers, but it will get you way over 50% and likely over 75%. If I was working with an agent, I’m sure they’d discourage me from that listing, but as a seller in a reasonable market, I’m willing to give up a few possible buyers to save 5-6% on a 7-figure transaction. (I’ve also seen FSBOs that offer X% to buyer agents.) I will say that agents did do some work to make the transaction complete on both of my house purchases. Negotiations after the inspection can be tense and a good agent can help both sides get to the closing table.
  - montgomster 3y ago
    PropBox would be very happy with buyers at 50 percent of the market. PropBox believes that there are good agents but there are way too many not so good agents. It is hard to distinguish what kind of agent you have until you start working with them.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      > way too many not so good agents This is exactly my experience. In shopping for my first house, I had a clear idea of what I wanted and a budget that matched that and the first four agents I worked with were nearly useless. (This was before web-MLS was a thing.) The fifth was a breath of fresh air and I would happily use them again.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    Are you saving 5-6% but selling at 10% less than you could? In some markets bidding wars are common. The extra 25-50% of bidders pushes up the price usually worth more than 5%
  - montgomster 3y ago
    sokoloff, on the point about the second negotiation on the inspection. The industry has this backwards. We recommend the per-purchase inspection for several reasons. 1. It takes the liability away from the seller stating what the condition is and moves it to the inspector. 2. by sharing it with the buyer before they make an offer you save them a bit of money, earn some trust as showing transparency, and 3. eliminating the stress of the second negotiation 10 days before closing and no one is available to fix a problem. You are making your home easier to buy. The easier you make it for the buyer, the faster you will sell and the better your price will be. Most buyers want a home in great condition.
- montgomster 3y ago
  Your observation is right on. The industry believes they perform a valuable service. PopBox believes that technology has already changed the playing field. Real estate agents job description, work environment, and compensation will change. Today they work in a 100 year old, inefficient system. PropBox uses technology to do the same work, with the customers help faster, easier and much more efficiently. This standardization and efficient process drives cost way down, and gives the customer what they want, a fast, simple, easy to use tool that puts them in control. Technology allows consumers to access the same information as the agent. This fact devalues the service, but has done little to devalue the price. We are hopeful enough customers recognize this and will save significant money with 10 to 12 hours of their time. If our test market hours of work hold up as we grow, our customers will save two thousand to six thousand dollars per hour. The customers success is our success.
  - montgomster 3y ago
    PropBox is not a real estate company. PropBox is a tech enabled platform that sells an ad to home sellers. It is a uniquely designed ad that offers options, not advice, to home sellers and buyers. We believe consumers of real estate are smart and when they have the options in front of them can chose which one is best.
    - conductr 3y ago
      It appears as if PropBox has no users/listings.
      - montgomster 3y ago
        Hello, Conductr. We now have one in Denver, and one waiting for a photographer on Seattle. The Seattle person is in this thread. He has a two million dollar home. If he is right, and the home sells, he will save $100K. Several more assking questions. We didn't expect to have any for a month or two. It will ramp up, slowly at first, tben begin to accelerate and scale. Hopefully. Doing a few things behind the scenes to throw a little gas on the fire.
- judge2020 3y ago
  > Once they view the house, the owner could convince them to ditch the agent. I mean honestly, what does the average agent do for a client? Not very much. Most Buyer Agency agreements operate on the basis of "if we show a house to you, and you buy it, we are owed a commission regardless of if you terminate the agreement afterwards". Now, typically a real estate agent isn't about to sue their clients if they purchase FSBO, since that would mean suing them for a 2.5 or 3% commission the seller wasn't even offering to the buyer agent, but it does mean that you can't get agent 1 to show a house, then switch to another agent, without agent 1 getting paid.
  - cj 3y ago
    Even if someone was driving by and pulled in the driveway and saw the house without the agent present? Do buyer agent agreements require you buy a house through them even if you find the house and view the house and negotiate the price with the seller yourself? (I’ve never relied on an agent for these things, I did everything myself when buying my first/only house)
    - judge2020 3y ago
      Some have exclusivity agreements that require that, but they're pretty unpopular (because it's also intimidating for a buyer to sign). What I described is a non-exclusive showing agreements, where they only get compensation if they helped in showing the house or completing the transaction (like drafting the contracts).
    - montgomster 3y ago
      In my state if you sign a buyer agency agreement, describe the property you are looking for and it is dated. You are obligated to pay in most situations. If you can prove abandonment you can likely get off the hook. Every state has their own laws and rules so be certain know what those laws and rules are. Also read the contract carefully. In my state there is a clause that if the listing broker doesn't pay the buyer agent, or doesn't pay enough to satisfy your fee, you are obligated to pay. I never liked that sentence. Thanks for your questions
  - 3y ago
montgomster 3y ago
Excellent question. PropBox is not a real estate company. It is a technically advanced media/advertising company that is specializing in advertising homes. The seller purchases an ad for a dedicated web page that benefits the seller and the buyer. They are in control, they make all the decisions, and they do all the work. A buyer can pay a buyer agent, a seller can choose to go a different route. We are not listing homes. We believe many home buyers and sellers are looking for an alternative to the the two choices that were available until we launched yesterday. Now there is a third choice, PropBox. A platform that provides both parties the same information and allows them to work directly together. We believe some customers will like the ease of use, the ability to speak with the seller who knows more about the house than any agent, and much more. Both parties will like the ability to better control and easily communicate with each other within the platform. PropBox is not avoiding the 3%, the customer is avoiding the 3%. I hope this answers your question. Thank you for asking.
- Dwolb 3y ago
  Your marketing copy should communicate this. >PropBox is not a real estate company. It is a technically advanced media/advertising company that is specializing in advertising homes. The seller purchases an ad for a dedicated web page that benefits the seller and the buyer. 1) What PropBox is in simple terms the customer would use. 2) How it works (from the customer perspective).
  - montgomster 3y ago
    Wow. This is very helpful. Thank you.
    - Dwolb 3y ago
      Glad I could help! Good luck on your journey.
      - montgomster 3y ago
        Thank you.
conductr 3y ago
Where I am at least, the 3% x2 commissions are just a customary commission share. Technically the listing agent charges whatever they want and shares whatever they want. Usually they charge 6% and share half. But there no obligation to offer buyers commission on the MLS listing. I put 0%. I felt like being on the MLS would sort this out, most shoppers would see the listing regardless and their agent can decide what to do at that point (I'd bet they'd show it if the buyer was interested)

montgomster 3y ago

Thank you for your thorough explanation on your experience. While I appreciate your sharing I come from a different perspective in that you were the customer and I was the service provider. I recently wrote a column that explains my role and a major consideration as to why I have undertaken this project.[1] Please check it out from an insiders perspective. It is always helpful. A mentor once told me "First seek to understand, then be understood."[1]https://dearmonty.com/selling-and-buying-a-home-today-is-easy/ https://dearmonty.com/selling-and-buying-a-home-today-is-eas...

windexh8er 3y ago

On the flip side I purchased my last home with a lawyer who's also a real estate agent. They only represent the buyer and provide all services for a flat fee that's tiered on the home price. It doesn't fix the Realtor problem with insane fees and idiotic sales tactics. But it allowed me to buy my home with far less out-of-pocket and at the end they handed me a 5-figure check as a rebate. This would have been his insane commission for doing very little. I don't understand how people still are just giving their money away to "Realtors" who, ultimately, unlock doors. The majority can't actually read or understand a contract (I sued Redfin because a Realtor working for them lost my earnest money when they failed to understand something as simple as a date), very few of them actually know anything about a home or what to look for and finally, these days, most buyers do 90%+ of the work to find the home they want. Do most people use travel agents anymore? Why use a Realtor?

judge2020 3y ago
> Why use a Realtor? Just to inquire, do you mean Realtor® or just a salesperson/agent? Any salesperson/agent can get their license by taking a short training course, and can then subscribe to lead websites like Zillow etc. But becoming a Realtor is at least a bit more commitment to knowing how real estate actually works and advising your client on good decisions, in addition to being bound by the Realtor code of ethics. https://www.nar.realtor/about-nar/when-is-a-real-estate-agent-a-realtor https://www.nar.realtor/about-nar/when-is-a-real-estate-agen...
- windexh8er 3y ago
  I'm sorry but the Realtor code of ethics is BS. I've read what Realtors are bound by and I've found those folks doing shady things. Like a common practice is for a Realtor to not mark a property as pending before it goes contingent. This allows the Realtor to pretend to potential clients that the property is still for sale and can drag it out in case something like an inspection causes the pending buyers to back out. I found one Realtor in my area that never issued a Pending update to any of his properties and submitted it to the Realtors Association as abuse. In their own language an agent has to update the status within, last I checked, 48 hours. They completely ignored me. When I brought up sharing this with local news outlets as a common, and shady, practice they said they would "look into it". They never responded beyond that. Being a Realtor doesn't mean you know anything about legal contracts or are able to inspect a home properly. It's a self serving organization that's sole focus is on revenue. Not the buyer and not the seller. There's very little, if any good that organization brings to market - that is unless you're a fan of monopolistic organizations that will do anything to keep out competition.

montgomster 3y ago

Thank you for your feedback. There are many people that have a different opinion. WE can start with the 500k fsbos in 2022. But there are other folks like the college investor[1] that has done some research and wrote about it on a blog. You may be right. To the best of our knowledge no one has built a product like PropBox to tackle it. Lots of startups fail for a variety of reasons and we are aware that it is way to early to know if we will be a victor or a victim. Only time will tell.[1]https://thecollegeinvestor.com/9084/real-estate-agents-anymore/ https://thecollegeinvestor.com/9084/real-estate-agents-anymo...