3 ms·

The question was about the minimum number of "righteous" people required for the city to be saved. Abraham started at 50, then 45, then 40, 30, 20, and finally

by gwd 3y ago

The question was about the minimum number of "righteous" people required for the city to be saved. Abraham started at 50, then 45, then 40, 30, 20, and finally 10 -- at each point, God said "OK, if there are that many righteous people in the city, I'll spare it." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+18%3A20-33&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+18%3A20...

yamazakiwi 3y ago
Why didn't god just state that there were none after Abraham thought there were 50?
- gwd 3y ago
  You could start by asking why God mentioned his intentions to Abraham at all. What the text says about that: > Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.” That is, Abraham's idea of justice, and how authorities act, will have a big impact on a fairly big chunk of humanity. Abraham obviously knows that Sodom isn't a great place. But just how bad is it? Obviously part of Abraham thinks even 10 people should be enough to spare the city; but some other part of Abraham may be more "realpolitik". Abraham thinks this Elohim person is more than just some local tyrant god; but is he really? Abraham thinks that even God should be open to having his decisions measured by justice and morality -- but that's not exactly a common attitude for gods of that time. God affirms all of Abraham's intuitions. Yes Abraham, you're right: killing the innocent with the righteous is not OK. Yes Abraham, you're right: even my actions are guided by morality. Yes Abraham, you're right: The "judge of all the earth" won't be offended if you check him. This experience changed Abraham as a person, and affected not only how he ran his own show, but what he passes on to his kids and their kids.
kelnos 3y ago
Thank you for explaining that much more clearly. It boggles my mind that, given stories in the Bible like this, anyone would think worshiping such a cruel and vengeful god is a moral thing to do. Granted, the New Testament tries to paint a much more compassionate picture. Just goes to show you that the church will do its best to change its marketing when the need arises.
- gwd 3y ago
  > It boggles my mind that, given stories in the Bible like this, anyone would think worshiping such a cruel and vengeful god is a moral thing to do. We're getting far afield from Ellsberg here, but let me just point out the logic of this statement: 1. There is a universal standard of morality -- a standard so universal that it would apply to God himself 2. "kelnos" knows what this universal standard says, at least well enough to judge the actions of "God" in this story as violating it. Now, for the most part I agree with you (except the conclusion); and in fact, that truth -- that the immorality of killing innocent people applies to God himself, and that mere mortals like Abraham (and kelnos) can be said to know what it is -- is implied by the story itself. But those are pretty big philosophical propositions, and I don't think most people are aware they're making them when they make statements like this.
  - troutwine 3y ago
    Indeed, this question of morality and arbitrating it is not alien to the Bible itself. It's the animating point on which Job turns.

by gwd 3y ago

yamazakiwi 3y ago

Why didn't god just state that there were none after Abraham thought there were 50?

gwd 3y ago
You could start by asking why God mentioned his intentions to Abraham at all. What the text says about that: > Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.” That is, Abraham's idea of justice, and how authorities act, will have a big impact on a fairly big chunk of humanity. Abraham obviously knows that Sodom isn't a great place. But just how bad is it? Obviously part of Abraham thinks even 10 people should be enough to spare the city; but some other part of Abraham may be more "realpolitik". Abraham thinks this Elohim person is more than just some local tyrant god; but is he really? Abraham thinks that even God should be open to having his decisions measured by justice and morality -- but that's not exactly a common attitude for gods of that time. God affirms all of Abraham's intuitions. Yes Abraham, you're right: killing the innocent with the righteous is not OK. Yes Abraham, you're right: even my actions are guided by morality. Yes Abraham, you're right: The "judge of all the earth" won't be offended if you check him. This experience changed Abraham as a person, and affected not only how he ran his own show, but what he passes on to his kids and their kids.

kelnos 3y ago

Thank you for explaining that much more clearly. It boggles my mind that, given stories in the Bible like this, anyone would think worshiping such a cruel and vengeful god is a moral thing to do. Granted, the New Testament tries to paint a much more compassionate picture. Just goes to show you that the church will do its best to change its marketing when the need arises.

gwd 3y ago
> It boggles my mind that, given stories in the Bible like this, anyone would think worshiping such a cruel and vengeful god is a moral thing to do. We're getting far afield from Ellsberg here, but let me just point out the logic of this statement: 1. There is a universal standard of morality -- a standard so universal that it would apply to God himself 2. "kelnos" knows what this universal standard says, at least well enough to judge the actions of "God" in this story as violating it. Now, for the most part I agree with you (except the conclusion); and in fact, that truth -- that the immorality of killing innocent people applies to God himself, and that mere mortals like Abraham (and kelnos) can be said to know what it is -- is implied by the story itself. But those are pretty big philosophical propositions, and I don't think most people are aware they're making them when they make statements like this.
- troutwine 3y ago
  Indeed, this question of morality and arbitrating it is not alien to the Bible itself. It's the animating point on which Job turns.