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Ellsberg is in many ways to mold from which modern day whistleblowers were cast. Edward Snowden said in an interview recently that when he was debating internal

Ellsberg is in many ways to mold from which modern day whistleblowers were cast. Edward Snowden said in an interview recently that when he was debating internally about whether or not he should become a whistleblower, knowing the ramifications it would have for his life, Ellsberg was what gave him the courage to do so. It was nice to learn that while in exile Snowden was able to get connected with Ellsberg and develop a friendship with him. Unfortunately Snowden and other modern day whistleblowers seem to have suffered more than Ellsberg who got off on something of a technicality.

idlewords 3y ago
[flagged]
- miguelazo 3y ago
  "at a time when his acquittal was anything but a foregone conclusion." This is a laughable statement given the treatment of several other recent whistleblowers. The power of the security state is orders of magnitude greater now.
  - Alex3917 3y ago
    This. They were literally torturing Chelsea Manning at the time.
    - aftbit 3y ago
      They were? This is news to me. I mean, the US prison system is basically torture, but I assume you mean something worse than that?
      - sneak 3y ago
        Yes, they put her in solitary for extended periods of time and took away all her clothes and effects as punitive measures long before trial.
        askin4it 3y ago
        [flagged]
      - jccc 3y ago
        https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/31/chelsea-manning-us-torture-un-official-wikileaks https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/31/chelsea-mann...
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  > while Snowden fled the country and eventually accepted Russian citizenship. You have to be a citizen of somewhere if you want to live in most places on the Earth.
  - 5555624 3y ago
    I believe Snowden is still a US citizen; he never renounced it, nor was it stripped from him. He has dual citizenship, once he was granted Russian citizenship.
  - idlewords 3y ago
    Snowden was born and remains a US citizen.
    - CogitoCogito 3y ago
      Is this supposed to be a retort to the post you’re responding to?
      - willy_k 3y ago
        Is this supposed to be a retort to the post you’re responding to?
    - dredmorbius 3y ago
      Citizenship of the country in which he resides provides some (admittedly shaky) greater claim to status, services, and opportunity, as well as, possibly, a passport and travel opportunities should he seek them for other domains. That last has been explicitly denied him by the country of his birth.
- jccc 3y ago
  Ellsberg disagrees with you: "Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S." https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-... "Many people compare Edward Snowden to me unfavorably for leaving the country and seeking asylum, rather than facing trial as I did. I don’t agree." Also, Snowden was trapped in Russia by the U.S. government while in transit to South America, enabling the smear that he went into the arms of the Russians. And further from Ellsberg: "I went underground with my wife, Patricia, for 13 days. My purpose (quite like Snowden’s in flying to Hong Kong) was to elude surveillance while I was arranging — with the crucial help of a number of others, still unknown to the FBI — to distribute the Pentagon Papers sequentially to 17 other newspapers, in the face of two more injunctions. The last three days of that period was in defiance of an arrest order: I was, like Snowden now, a 'fugitive from justice.'"
  - ajross 3y ago
    > Also, Snowden was trapped in Russia by the U.S. government while in transit to South America Snowden fled to Hong Kong first, then from there to Moscow. He was certainly never "in transit" to anywhere else, nor was any of this under the control (even indirectly) of the US government. He fled to nations which he knew would not extradite him. It's likely true that he had other destinations in mind. Nonetheless he couldn't get it arranged, and he ended up in Moscow because Putin viewed him as useful and extended an offer of residence that China was apparently not willing to make. Let's not spin here. Snowden isn't a Russian stooge (though obviously his freedom to speak freely about his host country is extremely limited), but let's not treat with conspiracy theories about this being America's Plan All Along.
    - jccc 3y ago
      He was in transit to Ecuador, which was going to grant him asylum. The U.S. government revoked his passport, trapping him in the Moscow airport. One may believe that Snowden's location at the time the U.S. revoked his passport was chance, but it's obvious that it was then used over and over to smear him as a Russian stooge. And we can see this smearing continues to this day. "Obviously his freedom to speak freely about his host country is extremely limited" Do you think the Russian government would prefer that he not say things like this? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/29/edward-snowden-describes-russian-government-as-corrupt https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/29/edward-snowd... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/world/europe/edward-snowden-criticizes-big-brother-measure-in-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/world/europe/edward-snowd...
- BizarreByte 3y ago
  There’s no value in Snowden returning to face punishment or torture. Most people given the option would have chosen to stay in Russia. Near guaranteed freedom in Russia or an unjust likely life imprisonment in one of the worst prisons in America? You don’t have to make a martyr of yourself as a whistleblower.
  - the_only_law 3y ago
    It’s always funny to see HN’s thoughts on that sort of cutthroat pragmatism when it’s them doing it, but how hard they demonize it when someone else does it.
    - BizarreByte 3y ago
      It’s one of the most annoying things about people online in general honestly. It’s easy to sacrifice oneself when it’s only theoretical and you’re safe at home behind a screen.
- z3c0 3y ago
  While I don't even agree that Snowden behaved cowardly - which is what you appear to be suggesting - it's really quite appalling to see that used as a way to undercut the status of "whistleblower". Surely, you take greater issue with our modern surveillance state than ones decorum based on how they perceive their likely ill treatment from the said state? Tbh it's the rhetorical equivalent of the game of "two for flinching", and just as juvenile.
- magpi3 3y ago
  So the greater moral courage would have been for Snowden to keep his mouth shut and remain a U.S.citizen? Where do you put the average person, who would simply prefer to keep their head down and enjoy their life, in your moral rankings scale?
  - idlewords 3y ago
    Snowden remains a US citizen.
- propagandist 3y ago
  Snowden sacrificed a comfortable life to expose a criminal enterprise in Washington that deprived Americans of their constitutional rights. Why should he accept to be judged by the criminals he exposed? He initially wanted to go to a different state, for your information, because he knew there would be people who would use his refuge in Russia to question his loyalty. The good news is that Americans on the street are overwhelmingly on his side and against the corrupt and unaccountable cabal running the country.
- tdeck 3y ago
  You seem to think that turning himself in was somehow a good thing. Why? Either his action in blowing the whistle is moral, in which case facing life imprisonment is obviously wrong, or his whistleblowing is wrong, in which case you wouldn't be praising his "moral courage". One he leaked the information, becoming a punching bag for the state doesn't do the world any good.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Aside from Ellsberg's own comments on that point: <https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=36366462 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=36366462>
- PhasmaFelis 3y ago
  If leaking is wrong, then self-sacrifice doesn't make it right. If leaking is right, then fleeing the consequences doesn't make it wrong. Trying to make this more about the perceived moral character of the leakers instead of the information that they leaked completely misses the point.
- mise_en_place 3y ago
  By that logic, no one would ever immigrate to the United States. Stand and fight for your beliefs, instead of fleeing your country with an oppressive regime. Clearly this is not the case and voting with your feet is a last resort when a system is so corrupted that it cannot be changed anymore.
- zirgs 3y ago
  > and eventually accepted Russian citizenship. That's because Russia doesn't extradite its citizens. While Russia doesn't have an extradition treaty with the USA - it has extradition treaties with some other US allied countries. So he'll be safe from extradition even after Putin is gone.

idlewords 3y ago

[flagged]

miguelazo 3y ago
"at a time when his acquittal was anything but a foregone conclusion." This is a laughable statement given the treatment of several other recent whistleblowers. The power of the security state is orders of magnitude greater now.
- Alex3917 3y ago
  This. They were literally torturing Chelsea Manning at the time.
  - aftbit 3y ago
    They were? This is news to me. I mean, the US prison system is basically torture, but I assume you mean something worse than that?
    - sneak 3y ago
      Yes, they put her in solitary for extended periods of time and took away all her clothes and effects as punitive measures long before trial.
      - askin4it 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - jccc 3y ago
      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/31/chelsea-manning-us-torture-un-official-wikileaks https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/31/chelsea-mann...
avgcorrection 3y ago
> while Snowden fled the country and eventually accepted Russian citizenship. You have to be a citizen of somewhere if you want to live in most places on the Earth.
- 5555624 3y ago
  I believe Snowden is still a US citizen; he never renounced it, nor was it stripped from him. He has dual citizenship, once he was granted Russian citizenship.
- idlewords 3y ago
  Snowden was born and remains a US citizen.
  - CogitoCogito 3y ago
    Is this supposed to be a retort to the post you’re responding to?
    - willy_k 3y ago
      Is this supposed to be a retort to the post you’re responding to?
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Citizenship of the country in which he resides provides some (admittedly shaky) greater claim to status, services, and opportunity, as well as, possibly, a passport and travel opportunities should he seek them for other domains. That last has been explicitly denied him by the country of his birth.
jccc 3y ago
Ellsberg disagrees with you: "Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S." https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-... "Many people compare Edward Snowden to me unfavorably for leaving the country and seeking asylum, rather than facing trial as I did. I don’t agree." Also, Snowden was trapped in Russia by the U.S. government while in transit to South America, enabling the smear that he went into the arms of the Russians. And further from Ellsberg: "I went underground with my wife, Patricia, for 13 days. My purpose (quite like Snowden’s in flying to Hong Kong) was to elude surveillance while I was arranging — with the crucial help of a number of others, still unknown to the FBI — to distribute the Pentagon Papers sequentially to 17 other newspapers, in the face of two more injunctions. The last three days of that period was in defiance of an arrest order: I was, like Snowden now, a 'fugitive from justice.'"
- ajross 3y ago
  > Also, Snowden was trapped in Russia by the U.S. government while in transit to South America Snowden fled to Hong Kong first, then from there to Moscow. He was certainly never "in transit" to anywhere else, nor was any of this under the control (even indirectly) of the US government. He fled to nations which he knew would not extradite him. It's likely true that he had other destinations in mind. Nonetheless he couldn't get it arranged, and he ended up in Moscow because Putin viewed him as useful and extended an offer of residence that China was apparently not willing to make. Let's not spin here. Snowden isn't a Russian stooge (though obviously his freedom to speak freely about his host country is extremely limited), but let's not treat with conspiracy theories about this being America's Plan All Along.
  - jccc 3y ago
    He was in transit to Ecuador, which was going to grant him asylum. The U.S. government revoked his passport, trapping him in the Moscow airport. One may believe that Snowden's location at the time the U.S. revoked his passport was chance, but it's obvious that it was then used over and over to smear him as a Russian stooge. And we can see this smearing continues to this day. "Obviously his freedom to speak freely about his host country is extremely limited" Do you think the Russian government would prefer that he not say things like this? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/29/edward-snowden-describes-russian-government-as-corrupt https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/29/edward-snowd... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/world/europe/edward-snowden-criticizes-big-brother-measure-in-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/world/europe/edward-snowd...
BizarreByte 3y ago
There’s no value in Snowden returning to face punishment or torture. Most people given the option would have chosen to stay in Russia. Near guaranteed freedom in Russia or an unjust likely life imprisonment in one of the worst prisons in America? You don’t have to make a martyr of yourself as a whistleblower.
- the_only_law 3y ago
  It’s always funny to see HN’s thoughts on that sort of cutthroat pragmatism when it’s them doing it, but how hard they demonize it when someone else does it.
  - BizarreByte 3y ago
    It’s one of the most annoying things about people online in general honestly. It’s easy to sacrifice oneself when it’s only theoretical and you’re safe at home behind a screen.
z3c0 3y ago
While I don't even agree that Snowden behaved cowardly - which is what you appear to be suggesting - it's really quite appalling to see that used as a way to undercut the status of "whistleblower". Surely, you take greater issue with our modern surveillance state than ones decorum based on how they perceive their likely ill treatment from the said state? Tbh it's the rhetorical equivalent of the game of "two for flinching", and just as juvenile.
magpi3 3y ago
So the greater moral courage would have been for Snowden to keep his mouth shut and remain a U.S.citizen? Where do you put the average person, who would simply prefer to keep their head down and enjoy their life, in your moral rankings scale?
- idlewords 3y ago
  Snowden remains a US citizen.
propagandist 3y ago
Snowden sacrificed a comfortable life to expose a criminal enterprise in Washington that deprived Americans of their constitutional rights. Why should he accept to be judged by the criminals he exposed? He initially wanted to go to a different state, for your information, because he knew there would be people who would use his refuge in Russia to question his loyalty. The good news is that Americans on the street are overwhelmingly on his side and against the corrupt and unaccountable cabal running the country.
tdeck 3y ago
You seem to think that turning himself in was somehow a good thing. Why? Either his action in blowing the whistle is moral, in which case facing life imprisonment is obviously wrong, or his whistleblowing is wrong, in which case you wouldn't be praising his "moral courage". One he leaked the information, becoming a punching bag for the state doesn't do the world any good.
dredmorbius 3y ago
Aside from Ellsberg's own comments on that point: <https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=36366462 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=36366462>
PhasmaFelis 3y ago
If leaking is wrong, then self-sacrifice doesn't make it right. If leaking is right, then fleeing the consequences doesn't make it wrong. Trying to make this more about the perceived moral character of the leakers instead of the information that they leaked completely misses the point.
mise_en_place 3y ago
By that logic, no one would ever immigrate to the United States. Stand and fight for your beliefs, instead of fleeing your country with an oppressive regime. Clearly this is not the case and voting with your feet is a last resort when a system is so corrupted that it cannot be changed anymore.
zirgs 3y ago
> and eventually accepted Russian citizenship. That's because Russia doesn't extradite its citizens. While Russia doesn't have an extradition treaty with the USA - it has extradition treaties with some other US allied countries. So he'll be safe from extradition even after Putin is gone.