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Watch makers solved this problem decades ago - there are very reasonable mechanical solutions to waterproofing. And if some limited components need to be seale

by munk-a 3y ago

Watch makers solved this problem decades ago - there are very reasonable mechanical solutions to waterproofing. And if some limited components need to be sealed (i.e. the USB port requires special shielding) that sealing can easily exist in a device that is otherwise reasonable to maintain. Watch maintenance has been done by skilled professionals using generic tools and (generally) generic components. Waterproofing is an excuse used to limit our ability to repair and maintain our devices and maybe because somebody didn't like the appearance of a screw face or screw cover on one side of the device.

brookst 3y ago
How does the case size of a watch compare to the movement size? Are you prepared to have a similar ratio for your phone? Basically the phones we have now with a permanent, very durable waterproof case?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- postalrat 3y ago
  Why are you comparing ratios of office vs wristwatches? You should be comparing phones with wall clocks. Those things are mostly empty.
- simondotau 3y ago
  This is precisely the point. It’s easy to make a durable case if it can be more than twice the size of the components it’s encasing.
petsfed 3y ago
Do most watches have ports that are designed for thousands of uses? My smart watch sure does. But of all the possible avenues by which its waterproofness might fail, that connector is #1. I'm pretty sure its custom, as the cable has actual pogo pins to connect. Strictly from a product design and especially hardware design standpoint, I get the resistance to easy replacement of certain parts. Designing for a replaceable battery means designing your seal to withstand at least twice as many battery replacements as the law requires, or you make sure you have enough replacement seals stockpiled to cover the number that will be replaced, or you use a a commodity seal (think an O-ring). Apple eventually made ~86 million iPhone 8 and 8 plus. Let's say that's representative of any given model of phone. How many millions (billions?) of seals is that? How much does that cost to store? To distribute? How much does that affect the cost of the phone? I am fully behind right-to-repair. I won't work for companies that have lobbied against it (and as an embedded hardware and firmware guy, that's significant). But there is a measurable, monetary cost to designing things to be repaired. Either we accept that only the richest n% of e.g. phone manufacturers can afford to stay in business, we as the consumer accept lower performance at the same price point, or both. All of that said, my point regarding connectors with finite cycle lifespans is relevant. These physical devices themselves have a lifespan. What is the point of replacing a battery when the charging port, headphone jack, physical buttons, touch screen, etc are spec'd to fail well before the average battery does? What about if you have the same iPhone 8 soldering problem, where the phone can't actually survive being put in the back pocket of a decently tight pair of pants? How does government regulation regarding batteries reverse the trend of people buying cheap things because they cost less?
- evilos 3y ago
  These phones have been made before at scale, I'm sure we could manage: https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s5-6033.php https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s5-6033.php > What is the point of replacing a battery when the charging port, headphone jack, physical buttons, touch screen, etc are spec'd to fail well before the average battery does Parts often/usually last far in excess of what they're spec'd for as I'm sure you know. And many of the things you list aren't critical to operation like the battery is.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    And they also required the flap to be closed for it to be water resistant.
    - evilos 3y ago
      Yes but USB C has solved that problem.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        Which modern phone has a removable battery and is water resistant? The vaunted Samsung s5, you still had to make sure that the battery was very secure and just right. > https://www.gottabemobile.com/samsung-galaxy-s5-water-test-dont-try-this-with-your-iphone/#:~:text=It's%20important%20to%20remember%20that,or%20are%20in%20extreme%20environments https://www.gottabemobile.com/samsung-galaxy-s5-water-test-d... > If you remove the battery, the Galaxy S5 will remind you to make sure the back cover is back in place securely.
        evilos 3y ago
        Apparently the brand new iphone 14! https://www.ifixit.com/News/64865/iphone-14-teardown https://www.ifixit.com/News/64865/iphone-14-teardown The new law apparently doesn't require a user to be able to replace the battery by hand. Just that it is serviceable.
samastur 3y ago
They solved it in a way where they don't guarantee you that it is water proof for more than 2 years without service and appropriate maintenance and it stops being water proof as soon as you open it.
kaba0 3y ago
I can also make a tiny little thingy waterproof, but it’s much harder to do with a mini-computer that is insanely powerful, has a whole camera department, can be used as a semi-professional video recorder, can withstand drops, and has a 1+ days battery life at least. Also, it is just ingenious to attribute everything to malice — is a modern combustion engine also irreparable because of some conteo, or is it irreparable simply because for efficiency reasons they had to use more precise technology with smaller error margins, where one’s fatty human hand just doesn’t cut anymore?

by munk-a 3y ago

brookst 3y ago

How does the case size of a watch compare to the movement size? Are you prepared to have a similar ratio for your phone? Basically the phones we have now with a permanent, very durable waterproof case?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
postalrat 3y ago
Why are you comparing ratios of office vs wristwatches? You should be comparing phones with wall clocks. Those things are mostly empty.
simondotau 3y ago
This is precisely the point. It’s easy to make a durable case if it can be more than twice the size of the components it’s encasing.

petsfed 3y ago

Do most watches have ports that are designed for thousands of uses? My smart watch sure does. But of all the possible avenues by which its waterproofness might fail, that connector is #1. I'm pretty sure its custom, as the cable has actual pogo pins to connect. Strictly from a product design and especially hardware design standpoint, I get the resistance to easy replacement of certain parts. Designing for a replaceable battery means designing your seal to withstand at least twice as many battery replacements as the law requires, or you make sure you have enough replacement seals stockpiled to cover the number that will be replaced, or you use a a commodity seal (think an O-ring). Apple eventually made ~86 million iPhone 8 and 8 plus. Let's say that's representative of any given model of phone. How many millions (billions?) of seals is that? How much does that cost to store? To distribute? How much does that affect the cost of the phone? I am fully behind right-to-repair. I won't work for companies that have lobbied against it (and as an embedded hardware and firmware guy, that's significant). But there is a measurable, monetary cost to designing things to be repaired. Either we accept that only the richest n% of e.g. phone manufacturers can afford to stay in business, we as the consumer accept lower performance at the same price point, or both. All of that said, my point regarding connectors with finite cycle lifespans is relevant. These physical devices themselves have a lifespan. What is the point of replacing a battery when the charging port, headphone jack, physical buttons, touch screen, etc are spec'd to fail well before the average battery does? What about if you have the same iPhone 8 soldering problem, where the phone can't actually survive being put in the back pocket of a decently tight pair of pants? How does government regulation regarding batteries reverse the trend of people buying cheap things because they cost less?

evilos 3y ago
These phones have been made before at scale, I'm sure we could manage: https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s5-6033.php https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s5-6033.php > What is the point of replacing a battery when the charging port, headphone jack, physical buttons, touch screen, etc are spec'd to fail well before the average battery does Parts often/usually last far in excess of what they're spec'd for as I'm sure you know. And many of the things you list aren't critical to operation like the battery is.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  And they also required the flap to be closed for it to be water resistant.
  - evilos 3y ago
    Yes but USB C has solved that problem.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      Which modern phone has a removable battery and is water resistant? The vaunted Samsung s5, you still had to make sure that the battery was very secure and just right. > https://www.gottabemobile.com/samsung-galaxy-s5-water-test-dont-try-this-with-your-iphone/#:~:text=It's%20important%20to%20remember%20that,or%20are%20in%20extreme%20environments https://www.gottabemobile.com/samsung-galaxy-s5-water-test-d... > If you remove the battery, the Galaxy S5 will remind you to make sure the back cover is back in place securely.
      - evilos 3y ago
        Apparently the brand new iphone 14! https://www.ifixit.com/News/64865/iphone-14-teardown https://www.ifixit.com/News/64865/iphone-14-teardown The new law apparently doesn't require a user to be able to replace the battery by hand. Just that it is serviceable.

samastur 3y ago

They solved it in a way where they don't guarantee you that it is water proof for more than 2 years without service and appropriate maintenance and it stops being water proof as soon as you open it.

kaba0 3y ago

I can also make a tiny little thingy waterproof, but it’s much harder to do with a mini-computer that is insanely powerful, has a whole camera department, can be used as a semi-professional video recorder, can withstand drops, and has a 1+ days battery life at least. Also, it is just ingenious to attribute everything to malice — is a modern combustion engine also irreparable because of some conteo, or is it irreparable simply because for efficiency reasons they had to use more precise technology with smaller error margins, where one’s fatty human hand just doesn’t cut anymore?