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I paid $99 to get my iPhone XS Max's battery replaced directly by Apple a few weeks back. That phone is almost 5 years old. I really don't think that $99 is unr

I paid $99 to get my iPhone XS Max's battery replaced directly by Apple a few weeks back. That phone is almost 5 years old. I really don't think that $99 is unreasonable.

ruined 3y ago
apple support is an exception. and that's still half the cost of a good used iphone xs. if you'd just bought new old stock, you'd be ahead. i'm currently running a pixel 4, and a battery swap would cost more than i spent on the phone.
- nickff 3y ago
  Used iPhone XSs are selling for <2/3 the price of new old stock (NOS). Why did you shift from one item to the other in the middle of your comment?
  - ruined 3y ago
    at the same price, i'd rather have new old stock than one that's been through god-knows-what plus open heart surgery. not sure where you're getting your prices, but it doesn't matter. the fact that this is even a point of contention indicates that swappable batteries would make a difference.
    - nickff 3y ago
      Where can you get new old stock for the same price as used?
rstat1 3y ago
Compared to $25 for a battery replacement that you could do yourself if it was replaceable kinda makes it seem unreasonable.
- inkyoto 3y ago
  Affordable replacements are all good and important to have, with a caveat. Lithium-ion batteries at the $25 pricepoint come from a single well known place of manufacturing and are usually of the unknown quality. They may or may not be safe to use, and there have been precendents of self-ignition and self-explosion to the point that some airlines have banned or have attempted to ban the Li-ion batteries in the carry-on. A branded $99 battery (all brands) is not 100% immune to the same problems but occurences are much more rare, and typically each such failed specimen is taken back to the manufacturer for an investigation. The only forensic process in existence for failed $25 batteries is called «throw it into the dumpster». That said, a better QA process by the phone manufacturer does make the $99 battery reasonable. If all suppliers of $25 batteries could guarantee the same rigid QA process for the $25 batteries they supply, that would make the $99 batteries unreasonable.
JohnFen 3y ago
> I really don't think that $99 is unreasonable. I do.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  Luxury products have luxury repair costs
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Sure, that's how they can get away with forcing you to pay $99 to change the battery, but that doesn't make the price reasonable.
  - rhaway84773 3y ago
    John Gruber also does this a lot. Compared iPhones to luxury goods like an Hermes bag, or even locked down consoles like Playstationd and XBoxes and wonders why, for example, Apple should be prevented from locking down their App Store but Sony and Microsoft are not. But it’s absolutely not a legitimate comparison. An Hermes bag, or a game console are very specialized devices. A smartphone is almost a necessity to live a modern life these days. Especially if you step out of the U.S. to more developing countries, where many people don’t own computers, or have email addresses. Everything they do, from basic transactions, to government IDs, to receiving govt benefits, etc happens on the phone. It’s absolutely legitimate for consumers to have different expectations for such essential computing devices, and for governments to step in when the providers of these devices are acting against their citizens’ interests.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      > John Gruber also does this a lot. Compared iPhones to luxury goods like an Hermes bag, Gruber does no such thing https://daringfireball.net/2016/10/iphone_edition https://daringfireball.net/2016/10/iphone_edition > Especially if you step out of the U.S. to more developing countries, where many people don’t own computers, or have email addresses. Everything they do, from basic transactions, to government IDs, to receiving govt benefits, etc happens on the phone. And those people aren’t buying iPhones….
johnfernow 3y ago
iFixit sells iPhone XS Max batteries for $35, nearly a third of the cost Apple is charging. $99 may not be a ton in some regions of the world, but it is enough that many are unwilling to spend that kind of money on a 5 year old phone, versus for $35, it's a low enough amount that many might just stick with their phone and replace the battery, leading to less e-waste. And while $99 may not be a lot in some regions of the world, but it's a significant amount of people's discretionary income in other regions (they may not be buying iPhones but the situation isn't much better for other brands as far as I'm aware.) $99 is also enough to outright buy a new cheap Android phone.
- tpmoney 3y ago
  >but it is enough that many are unwilling to spend that kind of money on a 5 year old phone, versus for $35, it's a low enough amount that many might just stick with their phone and replace the battery, leading to less e-waste. Are there people that find spending $99 on a battery replacement expensive that are really making the decision to replace their whole phone for 5-10x that amount?
  - aembleton 3y ago
    No, but they might just spend 2x that amount on a new Android phone.
    - rchaud 3y ago
      I imagine that a good chunk of people that can't stand Android are those that did what you're saying: they used a $200 Android phone to replace their flagship iPhone.
  - johnfernow 3y ago
    Most people aren't spending 5-10x that amount on buying a new phone. Global average selling price of all smartphones was $317 in 2021. Excluding iPhones (only Androids), in 2019, the global average selling price was $269. https://www.statista.com/statistics/788557/global-average-selling-price-smartphones/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/788557/global-average-se... And that's the average, likely brought up drastically by the sale of extremely expensive phones. Apple and Samsung's flagships start at $800 and go over double that for their absolute top of the line. Unfortunately I couldn't find the global median selling price of smartphones, but the source above mentions that 58.5% of all smartphones sold during the second quarter of 2019 in Latin America had a price tag of USD$199 or less, and 83% of all smartphones shipped to Africa during the 4th quarter of 2019 had a price tag of $199 or less. From a quick search, one of the best selling phones right now in India is the Galaxy M13, which is Rs. 9,699, or about USD$118 — barely any more than what Apple charges for a battery replacement in the US (obviously it's not that much for a replacement in India, but it does show how unnecessarily expensive $100 for a battery replacement really is.) https://www.bajajfinserv.in/insights/best-selling-phones-in-india https://www.bajajfinserv.in/insights/best-selling-phones-in-... In China, those that can afford it seem to buy iPhones (10.7% of sales), but all the rest of the best selling phones seem to be cheaper phones (next best selling is around ~USD$220, and the ones after that seem to be a little above or below that.) https://www.gizchina.com/2023/03/28/top-10-best-selling-mobile-phones-in-china-for-2022/ https://www.gizchina.com/2023/03/28/top-10-best-selling-mobi... In Mexico, 63% of smartphones sold in 2021 were between 3,000 to 10,000 pesos (USD$175 to $585.) https://expansion.mx/tecnologia/2022/08/04/smartphones-mas-vendidos-en-2022-mexico https://expansion.mx/tecnologia/2022/08/04/smartphones-mas-v... However, if I'm not mistaken that all is for new phones, and most phone sales worldwide aren't new. While used and refurbished smartphones make up only 24.4% of phone sales in North America as of 2020, they make up 75.6% of phone sales in the rest of the world. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1208609/used-smartphone-market-share-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1208609/used-smartphone-... So the average person worldwide is not buying a new phone at all (and thus spending even less than whatever the median selling smartphone price is, let alone the average.) However, the percentage of phone sales that are used is projected to decrease over time (according to the source above.) Not super surprising, given that while flagship phones have ditched removable backs for a while now, in the past few years more and more budget phones don't even have removable backs, and if you have to spend a significant portion of the cost of a new phone on a battery replacement, then that's a risky decision, as you don't know how long the other parts in the phone will last, and that's a lot of money that you're gambling on it. Sure, 3rd party repair shops in developing countries aren't charging you USD$100 for a battery replacement, but the labor can still easily double the cost of getting a new battery. At $35 (and that's from iFixit, which if I'm not mistaken doesn't even make the batteries — if the companies sold the batteries directly, it'd be even cheaper), a new battery would be a much smaller risk, and near certainly would lead to less e-waste.

I paid $99 to get my iPhone XS Max's battery replaced directly by Apple a few weeks back. That phone is almost 5 years old. I really don't think that $99 is unreasonable.

ruined 3y ago

apple support is an exception. and that's still half the cost of a good used iphone xs. if you'd just bought new old stock, you'd be ahead. i'm currently running a pixel 4, and a battery swap would cost more than i spent on the phone.

nickff 3y ago
Used iPhone XSs are selling for <2/3 the price of new old stock (NOS). Why did you shift from one item to the other in the middle of your comment?
- ruined 3y ago
  at the same price, i'd rather have new old stock than one that's been through god-knows-what plus open heart surgery. not sure where you're getting your prices, but it doesn't matter. the fact that this is even a point of contention indicates that swappable batteries would make a difference.
  - nickff 3y ago
    Where can you get new old stock for the same price as used?

rstat1 3y ago

Compared to $25 for a battery replacement that you could do yourself if it was replaceable kinda makes it seem unreasonable.

inkyoto 3y ago
Affordable replacements are all good and important to have, with a caveat. Lithium-ion batteries at the $25 pricepoint come from a single well known place of manufacturing and are usually of the unknown quality. They may or may not be safe to use, and there have been precendents of self-ignition and self-explosion to the point that some airlines have banned or have attempted to ban the Li-ion batteries in the carry-on. A branded $99 battery (all brands) is not 100% immune to the same problems but occurences are much more rare, and typically each such failed specimen is taken back to the manufacturer for an investigation. The only forensic process in existence for failed $25 batteries is called «throw it into the dumpster». That said, a better QA process by the phone manufacturer does make the $99 battery reasonable. If all suppliers of $25 batteries could guarantee the same rigid QA process for the $25 batteries they supply, that would make the $99 batteries unreasonable.

JohnFen 3y ago

> I really don't think that $99 is unreasonable. I do.

charcircuit 3y ago
Luxury products have luxury repair costs
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Sure, that's how they can get away with forcing you to pay $99 to change the battery, but that doesn't make the price reasonable.
- rhaway84773 3y ago
  John Gruber also does this a lot. Compared iPhones to luxury goods like an Hermes bag, or even locked down consoles like Playstationd and XBoxes and wonders why, for example, Apple should be prevented from locking down their App Store but Sony and Microsoft are not. But it’s absolutely not a legitimate comparison. An Hermes bag, or a game console are very specialized devices. A smartphone is almost a necessity to live a modern life these days. Especially if you step out of the U.S. to more developing countries, where many people don’t own computers, or have email addresses. Everything they do, from basic transactions, to government IDs, to receiving govt benefits, etc happens on the phone. It’s absolutely legitimate for consumers to have different expectations for such essential computing devices, and for governments to step in when the providers of these devices are acting against their citizens’ interests.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    > John Gruber also does this a lot. Compared iPhones to luxury goods like an Hermes bag, Gruber does no such thing https://daringfireball.net/2016/10/iphone_edition https://daringfireball.net/2016/10/iphone_edition > Especially if you step out of the U.S. to more developing countries, where many people don’t own computers, or have email addresses. Everything they do, from basic transactions, to government IDs, to receiving govt benefits, etc happens on the phone. And those people aren’t buying iPhones….

johnfernow 3y ago

iFixit sells iPhone XS Max batteries for $35, nearly a third of the cost Apple is charging. $99 may not be a ton in some regions of the world, but it is enough that many are unwilling to spend that kind of money on a 5 year old phone, versus for $35, it's a low enough amount that many might just stick with their phone and replace the battery, leading to less e-waste. And while $99 may not be a lot in some regions of the world, but it's a significant amount of people's discretionary income in other regions (they may not be buying iPhones but the situation isn't much better for other brands as far as I'm aware.) $99 is also enough to outright buy a new cheap Android phone.

tpmoney 3y ago
>but it is enough that many are unwilling to spend that kind of money on a 5 year old phone, versus for $35, it's a low enough amount that many might just stick with their phone and replace the battery, leading to less e-waste. Are there people that find spending $99 on a battery replacement expensive that are really making the decision to replace their whole phone for 5-10x that amount?
- aembleton 3y ago
  No, but they might just spend 2x that amount on a new Android phone.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    I imagine that a good chunk of people that can't stand Android are those that did what you're saying: they used a $200 Android phone to replace their flagship iPhone.
- johnfernow 3y ago
  Most people aren't spending 5-10x that amount on buying a new phone. Global average selling price of all smartphones was $317 in 2021. Excluding iPhones (only Androids), in 2019, the global average selling price was $269. https://www.statista.com/statistics/788557/global-average-selling-price-smartphones/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/788557/global-average-se... And that's the average, likely brought up drastically by the sale of extremely expensive phones. Apple and Samsung's flagships start at $800 and go over double that for their absolute top of the line. Unfortunately I couldn't find the global median selling price of smartphones, but the source above mentions that 58.5% of all smartphones sold during the second quarter of 2019 in Latin America had a price tag of USD$199 or less, and 83% of all smartphones shipped to Africa during the 4th quarter of 2019 had a price tag of $199 or less. From a quick search, one of the best selling phones right now in India is the Galaxy M13, which is Rs. 9,699, or about USD$118 — barely any more than what Apple charges for a battery replacement in the US (obviously it's not that much for a replacement in India, but it does show how unnecessarily expensive $100 for a battery replacement really is.) https://www.bajajfinserv.in/insights/best-selling-phones-in-india https://www.bajajfinserv.in/insights/best-selling-phones-in-... In China, those that can afford it seem to buy iPhones (10.7% of sales), but all the rest of the best selling phones seem to be cheaper phones (next best selling is around ~USD$220, and the ones after that seem to be a little above or below that.) https://www.gizchina.com/2023/03/28/top-10-best-selling-mobile-phones-in-china-for-2022/ https://www.gizchina.com/2023/03/28/top-10-best-selling-mobi... In Mexico, 63% of smartphones sold in 2021 were between 3,000 to 10,000 pesos (USD$175 to $585.) https://expansion.mx/tecnologia/2022/08/04/smartphones-mas-vendidos-en-2022-mexico https://expansion.mx/tecnologia/2022/08/04/smartphones-mas-v... However, if I'm not mistaken that all is for new phones, and most phone sales worldwide aren't new. While used and refurbished smartphones make up only 24.4% of phone sales in North America as of 2020, they make up 75.6% of phone sales in the rest of the world. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1208609/used-smartphone-market-share-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1208609/used-smartphone-... So the average person worldwide is not buying a new phone at all (and thus spending even less than whatever the median selling smartphone price is, let alone the average.) However, the percentage of phone sales that are used is projected to decrease over time (according to the source above.) Not super surprising, given that while flagship phones have ditched removable backs for a while now, in the past few years more and more budget phones don't even have removable backs, and if you have to spend a significant portion of the cost of a new phone on a battery replacement, then that's a risky decision, as you don't know how long the other parts in the phone will last, and that's a lot of money that you're gambling on it. Sure, 3rd party repair shops in developing countries aren't charging you USD$100 for a battery replacement, but the labor can still easily double the cost of getting a new battery. At $35 (and that's from iFixit, which if I'm not mistaken doesn't even make the batteries — if the companies sold the batteries directly, it'd be even cheaper), a new battery would be a much smaller risk, and near certainly would lead to less e-waste.