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I think the policies are pretty well informed. I do think USB-C was a huge problem, and I don't think it was coming in a few years. I'm not skeptical of replac

I think the policies are pretty well informed. I do think USB-C was a huge problem, and I don't think it was coming in a few years. I'm not skeptical of replaceable batteries. I think the policy that forces them to be removable on top of working with 3rd party manufacturers is a good idea. I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward. Edit: You can continue to argue in this thread, but the point of this reply was simply to point out that the parent comment was all thinly veiled opinions with no substance.

nickff 3y ago
>"I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward. " Compelling the use of USB-C will cause stagnation in connector innovation; there's no point in trying to to create new and more durable/water-proof/wear-resistant/faster connectors. The requirements for replaceable batteries may cause stagnation in other innovations; if we imagine that there'd been similar requirements in the alkaline era, we might never have gotten to Lithium-Ion.
- notRobot 3y ago
  There's no reason why devices can't have such a newer, better port alongside type-c. Until the new port gains traction the presence of type-c will help with compatibility, and presumably once this hypothetical connector has been proven better than type-c the regulation will simply be updated to mandate that instead.
  - dmix 3y ago
    How can it exist along side USB-C? You mean two ports or a converter or something?
    - wongarsu 3y ago
      Either a port that's compatible with USB-C charging but has otherwise different pins or electrical characteristics (just like how a USB-A port has 4 pins in USB 2 but 8 pins in USB 3, but is still compatible). Or you just add a second port.
      - dbg31415 3y ago
        Ugly to have 2 ports.
        wongarsu 3y ago
        Before we standardized on micro USB, lots of phones had ports easily three times the width of USB-C. We were ok with that back then, so why would two USB-C sized ports next to each other be so bad? In return, all your gizmos and chargers continue to work in the transition period. Or, just make the new port a barrel connector like a headphone jack, just with more segments. Bonus points if you can plug in an actual headphone and it works. Nobody seemed to have a problem with a headphone jack next to their USB port.
        dbg31415 3y ago
        Why do I want a headphone jack on my phone? I don’t. It’s all Bluetooth now. I like wireless headphones. But you should be free to buy them and we can both vote with equally with our wallets. Go buy phones that have the 3.5mm jacks and send the signal that consumers still want plugs invented in the 1950s. If that’s what you want to signal. You have a great way to tell Apple if you like what they are doing! So do I. Maybe Europeans like wired headphones over wireless? That’s news to me, but they should vote with their wallets. If you like what a company does, but things that company makes. If you don’t, don’t. It bugs me to see a government meddle with what customers want to buy. Don’t rig the system so you get a bigger voice than others. That’s not fair.
        5etho 3y ago
        it bugs me to see rabid "free market", after all europe is birthplace of socialism
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > The requirements for replaceable batteries may cause stagnation in other innovations What conceivable stagnation could requiring replaceable batteries cause?
  - therealchiggs 3y ago
    How can we know? This is part of the challenge with these regulations - by definition we're defining a framework based on existential knowledge. What about batteries that can also be panes of glass that act as the display? What about ultra low-power devices that are powered kinetically by typical human movement or magnetic perturbations? None of these currently exist in a commercially viable form, but if we regulate based on our current view of technology do we run the risk of making these innovations more challenging to bring to market? That's the challenging balance that needs to be considered.
    - wongarsu 3y ago
      The regulation gives manufacturers quite a lot of leeway on how easy it is to replace the battery. You could make the display a battery, just make sure users can replace the display with pull tabs, a set of precision screwdrivers and whatever other commercially available tools you want. And from just skimming the regulation, I don't see how devices would be forced to have a battery. It talks about devices with batteries, and batteries in mobile phones, but if your device doesn't have a battery then this regulation simply doesn't apply.
  - dmix 3y ago
    History is littered with examples of policy creating unintended consequences causing more harm than good. Or at least negating the early good it created over time. It’s usually fine at the start until cracks start to show and policies are often a one way street, that only get reformed many years after the problems become apparent, if at all.
    - Jochim 3y ago
      It's also littered with examples of a lack of policy causing untold harms. A light-hearted one would be the time libertarians found out that policy helps keep the bears away[0]. The answer isn't to abandon policy, it's to design it to be flexible and to respond quickly when problems are discovered. [0] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-...
- wmf 3y ago
  Note that USB-C was invented after the EU mandated Micro USB. Innovation still happens and the regulations get updated.
  - brookst 3y ago
    How did Apple sell phones in the EU without micro-USB?
    - nickff 3y ago
      Common EPS was a voluntary standard.
      - brookst 3y ago
        So the idea that mandatory standards don’t halt progress because phones moved past micro USB is hogwash, then?
- rchaud 3y ago
  "Connector innovation" is a solved problem. We really only needed symmetric connectors so we didn't have to insert a cable twice each time.
vineyardmike 3y ago
> I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward. These ultra thin foldable phones probably couldn’t exist with removable batteries. The thinness required to make it comfortable to use would be hard and so would the structural integrity with a removable backplate. It would absolutely restrict durability since it’d make waterproof and dustproofing way more challenging, if possible at all. Removable backs would limit wireless charging hardware like apples MagSafe (which is great!).
- fnimick 3y ago
  > Removable backs would limit wireless charging hardware like apples MagSafe (which is great!). I had a phone with a removable back and wireless charging back in 2012. This isn't rocket science.
  - johnfernow 3y ago
    Same. Was the Samsung Galaxy S3 (which in 2012 had wireless charging and a removable back) not sufficiently thin? It's less than a millimeter thicker than the current Galaxy S23, and I'm not sure that the <1mm of difference in the S23 comes from having a non-removable back (as opposed to the 11 years of advancements in other technologies.)
  - crimsontech 3y ago
    I had a Palm Pre in 2010 with a removable battery and wireless charging.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  As long as we are sharing random opinions - my Samsung s2 and s5 were smaller thinner lighter than modern phones, with 3.5mm and replaceable battery and microsd card. And also had gps and wifi and phone. And were ip67 rated. Modern phones are going for sexy, that's all. They are large in every dimension but Impractically thin even though everybody adds another 3mm - 6mm of case anyway because they're sleek to the point of unusable. I particularly love when we buy a sexy sleek thin phone and then put an otterbox on it :-)
danpalmer 3y ago
Parent commenter, and sure it was opinion, but based in good reasoning. USB-C wasn't the problem, MFi was. The rumours are that Apple's USB-C implementation will be locked down in similar ways, accessory manufacturers will still need to pay Apple to create certified accessories, and data transfer speeds are going to be restricted to Lightning speeds. USB-C everything is nice, but no non-techies I know like it because it's the new cable that's not compatible with any of their stuff (as much as I advocate for it). Removable batteries in smartphones just aren't workable. We have too high expectations for battery life, weight, durability, water resistance, and size. It negatively impacts all of these. There hasn't been a mass market smartphone with a replaceable battery in a long time, and if they were that great for customers there would have been. A much better option would be to focus on repairability, it would have almost all the benefits, and effectively none of the downsides.
- kelnos 3y ago
  > USB-C wasn't the problem, MFi was I'm an Android user, but nearly everyone I know has an iPhone. And not even one of them has an iPhone accessory. So how important is this MFi thing, really? From my perspective, the main annoyance is that my partner (who has an iPhone) needs a special charging cable, and can't use the cables I use for my phone and we both use for our laptops. And I suspect that's mainly what the EU cared about too: charging cables. > USB-C everything is nice, but no non-techies I know like it because it's the new cable that's not compatible with any of their stuff If you're talking about all their current stuff being Lightning, then that problem will work its way out in a few years. If their current stuff is all micro-USB or USB-A, then... what? How is that even possible these days? Even the cheap rechargeable motorized cat toys I've bought on Amazon use USB-C cables to charge. And if it is micro-USB or USB-A that their other devices use, so what? They'd just be going from one charging cable that only works with iPhones (Lightning) to another that only works with iPhones (USB-C). And as their other non-USB-C devices wear out or become obsolete, and they replace them with new ones that charge using USB-C cables, this problem will also sort itself over time.
- rhaway84773 3y ago
  MFI may be THE problem. But we will never know because you can’t even plug in non Apple stuff in the phone because they use a proprietary connector. Once Apple is required to use USB-C and then uses software to block non-MFI connections then the EU will (a) take them to court for trying to undermine the spirit of the legislation (b) if they lose in court pass a new law requiring them to prevent blocking non MFI connections (although they will probably allow them to display scary warning messages).

nickff 3y ago

>"I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward. " Compelling the use of USB-C will cause stagnation in connector innovation; there's no point in trying to to create new and more durable/water-proof/wear-resistant/faster connectors. The requirements for replaceable batteries may cause stagnation in other innovations; if we imagine that there'd been similar requirements in the alkaline era, we might never have gotten to Lithium-Ion.

notRobot 3y ago
There's no reason why devices can't have such a newer, better port alongside type-c. Until the new port gains traction the presence of type-c will help with compatibility, and presumably once this hypothetical connector has been proven better than type-c the regulation will simply be updated to mandate that instead.
- dmix 3y ago
  How can it exist along side USB-C? You mean two ports or a converter or something?
  - wongarsu 3y ago
    Either a port that's compatible with USB-C charging but has otherwise different pins or electrical characteristics (just like how a USB-A port has 4 pins in USB 2 but 8 pins in USB 3, but is still compatible). Or you just add a second port.
    - dbg31415 3y ago
      Ugly to have 2 ports.
      - wongarsu 3y ago
        Before we standardized on micro USB, lots of phones had ports easily three times the width of USB-C. We were ok with that back then, so why would two USB-C sized ports next to each other be so bad? In return, all your gizmos and chargers continue to work in the transition period. Or, just make the new port a barrel connector like a headphone jack, just with more segments. Bonus points if you can plug in an actual headphone and it works. Nobody seemed to have a problem with a headphone jack next to their USB port.
        dbg31415 3y ago
        Why do I want a headphone jack on my phone? I don’t. It’s all Bluetooth now. I like wireless headphones. But you should be free to buy them and we can both vote with equally with our wallets. Go buy phones that have the 3.5mm jacks and send the signal that consumers still want plugs invented in the 1950s. If that’s what you want to signal. You have a great way to tell Apple if you like what they are doing! So do I. Maybe Europeans like wired headphones over wireless? That’s news to me, but they should vote with their wallets. If you like what a company does, but things that company makes. If you don’t, don’t. It bugs me to see a government meddle with what customers want to buy. Don’t rig the system so you get a bigger voice than others. That’s not fair.
        5etho 3y ago
        it bugs me to see rabid "free market", after all europe is birthplace of socialism
JohnFen 3y ago
> The requirements for replaceable batteries may cause stagnation in other innovations What conceivable stagnation could requiring replaceable batteries cause?
- therealchiggs 3y ago
  How can we know? This is part of the challenge with these regulations - by definition we're defining a framework based on existential knowledge. What about batteries that can also be panes of glass that act as the display? What about ultra low-power devices that are powered kinetically by typical human movement or magnetic perturbations? None of these currently exist in a commercially viable form, but if we regulate based on our current view of technology do we run the risk of making these innovations more challenging to bring to market? That's the challenging balance that needs to be considered.
  - wongarsu 3y ago
    The regulation gives manufacturers quite a lot of leeway on how easy it is to replace the battery. You could make the display a battery, just make sure users can replace the display with pull tabs, a set of precision screwdrivers and whatever other commercially available tools you want. And from just skimming the regulation, I don't see how devices would be forced to have a battery. It talks about devices with batteries, and batteries in mobile phones, but if your device doesn't have a battery then this regulation simply doesn't apply.
- dmix 3y ago
  History is littered with examples of policy creating unintended consequences causing more harm than good. Or at least negating the early good it created over time. It’s usually fine at the start until cracks start to show and policies are often a one way street, that only get reformed many years after the problems become apparent, if at all.
  - Jochim 3y ago
    It's also littered with examples of a lack of policy causing untold harms. A light-hearted one would be the time libertarians found out that policy helps keep the bears away[0]. The answer isn't to abandon policy, it's to design it to be flexible and to respond quickly when problems are discovered. [0] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-...
wmf 3y ago
Note that USB-C was invented after the EU mandated Micro USB. Innovation still happens and the regulations get updated.
- brookst 3y ago
  How did Apple sell phones in the EU without micro-USB?
  - nickff 3y ago
    Common EPS was a voluntary standard.
    - brookst 3y ago
      So the idea that mandatory standards don’t halt progress because phones moved past micro USB is hogwash, then?
rchaud 3y ago
"Connector innovation" is a solved problem. We really only needed symmetric connectors so we didn't have to insert a cable twice each time.

vineyardmike 3y ago

> I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward. These ultra thin foldable phones probably couldn’t exist with removable batteries. The thinness required to make it comfortable to use would be hard and so would the structural integrity with a removable backplate. It would absolutely restrict durability since it’d make waterproof and dustproofing way more challenging, if possible at all. Removable backs would limit wireless charging hardware like apples MagSafe (which is great!).

fnimick 3y ago
> Removable backs would limit wireless charging hardware like apples MagSafe (which is great!). I had a phone with a removable back and wireless charging back in 2012. This isn't rocket science.
- johnfernow 3y ago
  Same. Was the Samsung Galaxy S3 (which in 2012 had wireless charging and a removable back) not sufficiently thin? It's less than a millimeter thicker than the current Galaxy S23, and I'm not sure that the <1mm of difference in the S23 comes from having a non-removable back (as opposed to the 11 years of advancements in other technologies.)
- crimsontech 3y ago
  I had a Palm Pre in 2010 with a removable battery and wireless charging.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
As long as we are sharing random opinions - my Samsung s2 and s5 were smaller thinner lighter than modern phones, with 3.5mm and replaceable battery and microsd card. And also had gps and wifi and phone. And were ip67 rated. Modern phones are going for sexy, that's all. They are large in every dimension but Impractically thin even though everybody adds another 3mm - 6mm of case anyway because they're sleek to the point of unusable. I particularly love when we buy a sexy sleek thin phone and then put an otterbox on it :-)

danpalmer 3y ago

Parent commenter, and sure it was opinion, but based in good reasoning. USB-C wasn't the problem, MFi was. The rumours are that Apple's USB-C implementation will be locked down in similar ways, accessory manufacturers will still need to pay Apple to create certified accessories, and data transfer speeds are going to be restricted to Lightning speeds. USB-C everything is nice, but no non-techies I know like it because it's the new cable that's not compatible with any of their stuff (as much as I advocate for it). Removable batteries in smartphones just aren't workable. We have too high expectations for battery life, weight, durability, water resistance, and size. It negatively impacts all of these. There hasn't been a mass market smartphone with a replaceable battery in a long time, and if they were that great for customers there would have been. A much better option would be to focus on repairability, it would have almost all the benefits, and effectively none of the downsides.

kelnos 3y ago
> USB-C wasn't the problem, MFi was I'm an Android user, but nearly everyone I know has an iPhone. And not even one of them has an iPhone accessory. So how important is this MFi thing, really? From my perspective, the main annoyance is that my partner (who has an iPhone) needs a special charging cable, and can't use the cables I use for my phone and we both use for our laptops. And I suspect that's mainly what the EU cared about too: charging cables. > USB-C everything is nice, but no non-techies I know like it because it's the new cable that's not compatible with any of their stuff If you're talking about all their current stuff being Lightning, then that problem will work its way out in a few years. If their current stuff is all micro-USB or USB-A, then... what? How is that even possible these days? Even the cheap rechargeable motorized cat toys I've bought on Amazon use USB-C cables to charge. And if it is micro-USB or USB-A that their other devices use, so what? They'd just be going from one charging cable that only works with iPhones (Lightning) to another that only works with iPhones (USB-C). And as their other non-USB-C devices wear out or become obsolete, and they replace them with new ones that charge using USB-C cables, this problem will also sort itself over time.
rhaway84773 3y ago
MFI may be THE problem. But we will never know because you can’t even plug in non Apple stuff in the phone because they use a proprietary connector. Once Apple is required to use USB-C and then uses software to block non-MFI connections then the EU will (a) take them to court for trying to undermine the spirit of the legislation (b) if they lose in court pass a new law requiring them to prevent blocking non MFI connections (although they will probably allow them to display scary warning messages).