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I'd much rather be able to swap a charged battery for the drained one in my phone especially in such circumstances as when I'm in a foreign country and depende

I'd much rather be able to swap a charged battery for the drained one in my phone especially in such circumstances as when I'm in a foreign country and dependent on my phone (for e.g. safety, to get around) and there's not a iPhone cable or charge point around. It seems like a no brainer, certainly from a consumer benefit perspective. Using batteries as a mechanism for hardware upgrades is ridiculous, instead of the features of the new hardware that should be the compelling, selling point and the way to a value statement that wins hearts and minds.

eterevsky 3y ago
If a battery lasts a couple of days, I would much rather my phone were waterproof than be able to swap the battery. Having a power bank solves the problem of discharged phone for me, and anyway I almost never have to use it. Being able to drop your phone in the water and pick it up still working is far more valuable to me.
- Timon3 3y ago
  Waterproof phones with replacable batteries might not be waterproof after the replacement - so why don't you just keep the original battery, and have a waterproof phone? Win-win for everyone.
  - eterevsky 3y ago
    From my understanding, sealant used to make phones waterproof is basically glue, which precludes "easy" replacement of batteries.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      I don't think you properly understood my comment. I am specifically saying: even if replacing the battery makes the phone no longer waterproof, you can just not replace the battery. Nobody comes into your house at night and forces you to install a new battery because your old one isn't good anymore.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        It's very nice to be able to replace a battery in the field. I used to carry a spare charged battery and swap it for an instant recharge. That use case is still valuable to me, but isn't possible anymore.
        Timon3 3y ago
        Yes, that is why I'm arguing that even if changing the battery must necessarily break the waterseal, the battery should still be changable. In this hypothetical scenario it would be worth it to leave it open to the individual.
      - eterevsky 3y ago
        I understood your comment. The article implies that the battery has to be _easily_ replaceable, i.e. that you could just take a battery and maybe a screwdriver out of your pocket and replace it. I don't think it's easy to design a phone that would at the same time a) have easily replaceable battery, and b) be waterproof until the first battery replacement.
        Timon3 3y ago
        Why not?
  - bmicraft 3y ago
    Galaxy S5 did it 9 years ago
- smn1234 3y ago
  I completely agree, that overall water resistance and IP rating would be more valuable. What's stopping figuring out how the hardware can achieve both battery replace-ability and water resistance? Phones already have holes in them, e.g. speakers and charger port, and yet are able to survive a water immersion event.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    Its way easier for the speaker ports, you just seal the drivers well enough and they'll be sealed unless there's just too much pressure. The seal never experiences any mechanical wear, you can practically just glue it around the edge. Similar thing with the charger/data port. The outside of the port can be completely sealed up with just the electrical connections going through. The port isn't ever opened, there's no mechanical wear of actually going in and out of the sealed area. Glue it all up but leave the electrical connectors exposed and its sealed. A battery door is a whole 'nother issue. Starting off, its probably going to have considerably more perimeter needing to seal, especially if its like the doors of yore where you popped off a significant part of the back. Then, you'll need this seal to handle a lot of open/close events and be able to handle the dirt and debris which it will be exposed to. Keeping the device's profile thin gets way more complicated with all of these requirements, and the seal will probably still be less reliable than the seals for the charging port and the speakers/mics.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > What's stopping figuring out how the hardware can achieve both battery replace-ability and water resistance? Nothing, since it wasn't all that long ago that there were phones that did this.
- hunter2_ 3y ago
  Seems like it should be possible for the phone (not the battery compartment and battery door, just the rest of the phone) to be waterproof, and for the battery to be waterproof, and the two can contact each other regardless of that contact being in a wet location. After all, we have plenty of electrical wiring methods rated for wet locations, so why not this? Water isn't the very best insulator (especially saltwater and other mineral content, which the contacts would need corrosion resistance for as well) but it should be sufficient at 4VDC.
  - eterevsky 3y ago
    Wikipedia says that the resistance of water is 0.2 Ω·m for sea water, 2 to 200 Ω·m for drinking water. This is very low and can drain your battery almost immediately.
    - bombela 3y ago
      Wikipedia also says that water starts conducting at 1.23V, and the common Li-Ion nominal voltage is 3.7V. 3.7V - 1.23V == 2.47V. 2.47V / 0.2Ω ~= 30W (12.5A). You will be able the find your phone on the seabed from the bubble emanating from it. Though the battery protect circuitry (which is inside the battery package) will most likely cut power before the battery is risks damages.
      - hunter2_ 3y ago
        > protect circuitry (which is inside the battery package) will most likely cut power I wonder if that's responsible for the experiences folks had way before waterproof phones were introduced: they would drop their phone into water, it would shut off and refuse to boot for a significant amount of time (enough to send them shopping for a replacement) and then they'd try it a week later only to find that it works fine. Accelerated by putting it in a bag with rice or other desiccant.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > If a battery lasts a couple of days, I would much rather my phone were waterproof than be able to swap the battery. You can have both. > Having a power bank solves the problem of discharged phone for me There are cases where a power bank isn't a good solution. They big and heavy. Not being able to swap in a fully-charged battery on demand means that I can no longer use my phone for certain things that I used to be able to do.
- bmicraft 3y ago
  Galaxy S5 had both and at 8.1mm/0.31in was thinner than phones are now. I don't see why I should have to choose 9 years later
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    You’re at least the third person to say this without the disclaimer - only if the rubber flap was securely covering the ports when it was dropped in water.
    - Jochim 3y ago
      You repeat this everywhere. The port requiring a flap has no bearing on the waterproofing of the battery which used an entirely separately gasket on the back cover. You can clearly see here[0] that the gasket on the flap protects only the USB port from water ingress. The battery and sim are protected by the grey gasket on the rear cover. The opening for the rear speakers in the back cover reinforces the fact that the flap is there to protect the interface of the USB port and its housing. The rear cover does not contact the USB port at all. [0] https://www.paulstravelpictures.com/Samsung-Galaxy-S5-USB-Charging-Port-Cover-Replacement-Guide/Samsung-Galaxy-S5-USB-Charging-Door-Cover-Replacement-Guide-004.JPG https://www.paulstravelpictures.com/Samsung-Galaxy-S5-USB-Ch...
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        And you had to make really sure that the battery was completely secured when you replaced it. There was even a warning on the screen. https://www.gottabemobile.com/samsung-galaxy-s5-water-test-d https://www.gottabemobile.com/samsung-galaxy-s5-water-test-d... > If you remove the battery, the Galaxy S5 will remind you to make sure the back cover is back in place securely. reply
        Jochim 3y ago
        Making sure a rear cover has snapped into place is much less prone to failure than acquiring tools and applying heat to a glued on rear cover, de-soldering/disconnecting a battery and evenly re-applying and heating new glue.
vineyardmike 3y ago
> I'd much rather be able to swap a charged battery for the drained one in my phone especially in circumstances when I'm in a foreign country and dependent on my phone I don’t deny that this is a valid use case for you, but I’ve absolutely never been in this position. I carry around a battery phone charger in situations where I’d depend on my phone. If you squint, yes that’s pretty similar, but the big difference is that a USB charger can power my iPhone and my partners android phone without requiring the phones to use standardized batteries internally. I think batteries should be replacing in a repair sense, but I’m not sure the “pop open the back and swap it on the streets of Tokyo” is a common use case we should legislate against. Like others said, I would much rather have it be more durable (eg waterproof). Also I’ll add that thinness is a desirable trait (to a point).
- smn1234 3y ago
  Carrying around bulky power banks or worse, chargers to then tie you to sit close to an outlet and wait for the battery to charge, is not entirely ideal when you're on the go, foreign or domestic. It's also less anxiety-inducing to not have to worry about where will I get my next charge and how long will it interrupt my plans for.
  - vineyardmike 3y ago
    The portable battery pack is no more bulky than carrying around portable phone batteries? And it has the benefit of being sharable. And it has the benefit of being able to work hot - you don’t have to turn off your phone to charge it.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > The portable battery pack is no more bulky than carrying around portable phone batteries They're a lot bulkier. Phone batteries are physically very small and light. Good power banks aren't.
      - jenadine 3y ago
hutzlibu 3y ago
For your use case, powerbanks work very well. Because then you dont have to turn the phone of. My main motivation for only using battery removable phones is privacy, because I know they are really off, when I remove the battery. But the choice is currently very limited.
tomp 3y ago
What's the difference between carrying an extra replaceable battery with you, vs carrying an external battery you can use to charge the phone?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Weight, bulk, and the time it takes to actually do the charge.
- rchaud 3y ago
  External power banks charge via USB. Most people don't want to walk around with their phone tethered via 4ft USB cable to a power bank in their backpack.
cthalupa 3y ago
I feel like those rarer circumstances can be handled pretty easily with a portable battery bank, and also pull double duty for any other USB devices you might have. With my 14 Pro Max I charge my phone every 2-3 days, and I'm not letting it get down to <20% when doing this, either. I'm obviously not making heavy use of it over this time, but even on days when I am out and about and using it more, I'm never in danger of it running out of battery. Personally, at least, I'll take the sleeker design vs. an easily swap-able battery. Thankfully, it sounds like the EU law doesn't actually require it be replaceable in a tool-less manner, so it sounds like the type of design the iPhone 14 (non-max) uses will qualify.
- rchaud 3y ago
  If you held a 2014 Galaxy Note 4 in one hand, and a modern iPhone in the other, I think you'd notice that the sleekness factor is not that different.
  - pmontra 3y ago
    From GSM Arena Galaxy Note 4 Dimensions 153.5 x 78.6 x 8.5 mm (6.04 x 3.09 x 0.33 in) Weight 176 g (6.21 oz) iPhone 14 Pro Dimensions 146.7 x 71.5 x 7.8 mm (5.78 x 2.81 x 0.31 in) Weight 172 g (6.07 oz) iPhone 14 Pro Max Dimensions 160.7 x 77.6 x 7.9 mm (6.33 x 3.06 x 0.31 in) Weight 240 g (8.47 oz) 240 g? What did they put into that phone?

eterevsky 3y ago

If a battery lasts a couple of days, I would much rather my phone were waterproof than be able to swap the battery. Having a power bank solves the problem of discharged phone for me, and anyway I almost never have to use it. Being able to drop your phone in the water and pick it up still working is far more valuable to me.

Timon3 3y ago
Waterproof phones with replacable batteries might not be waterproof after the replacement - so why don't you just keep the original battery, and have a waterproof phone? Win-win for everyone.
- eterevsky 3y ago
  From my understanding, sealant used to make phones waterproof is basically glue, which precludes "easy" replacement of batteries.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    I don't think you properly understood my comment. I am specifically saying: even if replacing the battery makes the phone no longer waterproof, you can just not replace the battery. Nobody comes into your house at night and forces you to install a new battery because your old one isn't good anymore.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      It's very nice to be able to replace a battery in the field. I used to carry a spare charged battery and swap it for an instant recharge. That use case is still valuable to me, but isn't possible anymore.
      - Timon3 3y ago
        Yes, that is why I'm arguing that even if changing the battery must necessarily break the waterseal, the battery should still be changable. In this hypothetical scenario it would be worth it to leave it open to the individual.
    - eterevsky 3y ago
      I understood your comment. The article implies that the battery has to be _easily_ replaceable, i.e. that you could just take a battery and maybe a screwdriver out of your pocket and replace it. I don't think it's easy to design a phone that would at the same time a) have easily replaceable battery, and b) be waterproof until the first battery replacement.
      - Timon3 3y ago
        Why not?
- bmicraft 3y ago
  Galaxy S5 did it 9 years ago
smn1234 3y ago
I completely agree, that overall water resistance and IP rating would be more valuable. What's stopping figuring out how the hardware can achieve both battery replace-ability and water resistance? Phones already have holes in them, e.g. speakers and charger port, and yet are able to survive a water immersion event.
- vel0city 3y ago
  Its way easier for the speaker ports, you just seal the drivers well enough and they'll be sealed unless there's just too much pressure. The seal never experiences any mechanical wear, you can practically just glue it around the edge. Similar thing with the charger/data port. The outside of the port can be completely sealed up with just the electrical connections going through. The port isn't ever opened, there's no mechanical wear of actually going in and out of the sealed area. Glue it all up but leave the electrical connectors exposed and its sealed. A battery door is a whole 'nother issue. Starting off, its probably going to have considerably more perimeter needing to seal, especially if its like the doors of yore where you popped off a significant part of the back. Then, you'll need this seal to handle a lot of open/close events and be able to handle the dirt and debris which it will be exposed to. Keeping the device's profile thin gets way more complicated with all of these requirements, and the seal will probably still be less reliable than the seals for the charging port and the speakers/mics.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > What's stopping figuring out how the hardware can achieve both battery replace-ability and water resistance? Nothing, since it wasn't all that long ago that there were phones that did this.
hunter2_ 3y ago
Seems like it should be possible for the phone (not the battery compartment and battery door, just the rest of the phone) to be waterproof, and for the battery to be waterproof, and the two can contact each other regardless of that contact being in a wet location. After all, we have plenty of electrical wiring methods rated for wet locations, so why not this? Water isn't the very best insulator (especially saltwater and other mineral content, which the contacts would need corrosion resistance for as well) but it should be sufficient at 4VDC.
- eterevsky 3y ago
  Wikipedia says that the resistance of water is 0.2 Ω·m for sea water, 2 to 200 Ω·m for drinking water. This is very low and can drain your battery almost immediately.
  - bombela 3y ago
    Wikipedia also says that water starts conducting at 1.23V, and the common Li-Ion nominal voltage is 3.7V. 3.7V - 1.23V == 2.47V. 2.47V / 0.2Ω ~= 30W (12.5A). You will be able the find your phone on the seabed from the bubble emanating from it. Though the battery protect circuitry (which is inside the battery package) will most likely cut power before the battery is risks damages.
    - hunter2_ 3y ago
      > protect circuitry (which is inside the battery package) will most likely cut power I wonder if that's responsible for the experiences folks had way before waterproof phones were introduced: they would drop their phone into water, it would shut off and refuse to boot for a significant amount of time (enough to send them shopping for a replacement) and then they'd try it a week later only to find that it works fine. Accelerated by putting it in a bag with rice or other desiccant.
JohnFen 3y ago
> If a battery lasts a couple of days, I would much rather my phone were waterproof than be able to swap the battery. You can have both. > Having a power bank solves the problem of discharged phone for me There are cases where a power bank isn't a good solution. They big and heavy. Not being able to swap in a fully-charged battery on demand means that I can no longer use my phone for certain things that I used to be able to do.
bmicraft 3y ago
Galaxy S5 had both and at 8.1mm/0.31in was thinner than phones are now. I don't see why I should have to choose 9 years later
- scarface_74 3y ago
  You’re at least the third person to say this without the disclaimer - only if the rubber flap was securely covering the ports when it was dropped in water.
  - Jochim 3y ago
    You repeat this everywhere. The port requiring a flap has no bearing on the waterproofing of the battery which used an entirely separately gasket on the back cover. You can clearly see here[0] that the gasket on the flap protects only the USB port from water ingress. The battery and sim are protected by the grey gasket on the rear cover. The opening for the rear speakers in the back cover reinforces the fact that the flap is there to protect the interface of the USB port and its housing. The rear cover does not contact the USB port at all. [0] https://www.paulstravelpictures.com/Samsung-Galaxy-S5-USB-Charging-Port-Cover-Replacement-Guide/Samsung-Galaxy-S5-USB-Charging-Door-Cover-Replacement-Guide-004.JPG https://www.paulstravelpictures.com/Samsung-Galaxy-S5-USB-Ch...
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      And you had to make really sure that the battery was completely secured when you replaced it. There was even a warning on the screen. https://www.gottabemobile.com/samsung-galaxy-s5-water-test-d https://www.gottabemobile.com/samsung-galaxy-s5-water-test-d... > If you remove the battery, the Galaxy S5 will remind you to make sure the back cover is back in place securely. reply
      - Jochim 3y ago
        Making sure a rear cover has snapped into place is much less prone to failure than acquiring tools and applying heat to a glued on rear cover, de-soldering/disconnecting a battery and evenly re-applying and heating new glue.

vineyardmike 3y ago

> I'd much rather be able to swap a charged battery for the drained one in my phone especially in circumstances when I'm in a foreign country and dependent on my phone I don’t deny that this is a valid use case for you, but I’ve absolutely never been in this position. I carry around a battery phone charger in situations where I’d depend on my phone. If you squint, yes that’s pretty similar, but the big difference is that a USB charger can power my iPhone and my partners android phone without requiring the phones to use standardized batteries internally. I think batteries should be replacing in a repair sense, but I’m not sure the “pop open the back and swap it on the streets of Tokyo” is a common use case we should legislate against. Like others said, I would much rather have it be more durable (eg waterproof). Also I’ll add that thinness is a desirable trait (to a point).

smn1234 3y ago
Carrying around bulky power banks or worse, chargers to then tie you to sit close to an outlet and wait for the battery to charge, is not entirely ideal when you're on the go, foreign or domestic. It's also less anxiety-inducing to not have to worry about where will I get my next charge and how long will it interrupt my plans for.
- vineyardmike 3y ago
  The portable battery pack is no more bulky than carrying around portable phone batteries? And it has the benefit of being sharable. And it has the benefit of being able to work hot - you don’t have to turn off your phone to charge it.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > The portable battery pack is no more bulky than carrying around portable phone batteries They're a lot bulkier. Phone batteries are physically very small and light. Good power banks aren't.
    - jenadine 3y ago

hutzlibu 3y ago

For your use case, powerbanks work very well. Because then you dont have to turn the phone of. My main motivation for only using battery removable phones is privacy, because I know they are really off, when I remove the battery. But the choice is currently very limited.

tomp 3y ago

What's the difference between carrying an extra replaceable battery with you, vs carrying an external battery you can use to charge the phone?

JohnFen 3y ago
Weight, bulk, and the time it takes to actually do the charge.
rchaud 3y ago
External power banks charge via USB. Most people don't want to walk around with their phone tethered via 4ft USB cable to a power bank in their backpack.

cthalupa 3y ago

I feel like those rarer circumstances can be handled pretty easily with a portable battery bank, and also pull double duty for any other USB devices you might have. With my 14 Pro Max I charge my phone every 2-3 days, and I'm not letting it get down to <20% when doing this, either. I'm obviously not making heavy use of it over this time, but even on days when I am out and about and using it more, I'm never in danger of it running out of battery. Personally, at least, I'll take the sleeker design vs. an easily swap-able battery. Thankfully, it sounds like the EU law doesn't actually require it be replaceable in a tool-less manner, so it sounds like the type of design the iPhone 14 (non-max) uses will qualify.

rchaud 3y ago
If you held a 2014 Galaxy Note 4 in one hand, and a modern iPhone in the other, I think you'd notice that the sleekness factor is not that different.
- pmontra 3y ago
  From GSM Arena Galaxy Note 4 Dimensions 153.5 x 78.6 x 8.5 mm (6.04 x 3.09 x 0.33 in) Weight 176 g (6.21 oz) iPhone 14 Pro Dimensions 146.7 x 71.5 x 7.8 mm (5.78 x 2.81 x 0.31 in) Weight 172 g (6.07 oz) iPhone 14 Pro Max Dimensions 160.7 x 77.6 x 7.9 mm (6.33 x 3.06 x 0.31 in) Weight 240 g (8.47 oz) 240 g? What did they put into that phone?