5 ms·

> So even if a 3PA user cost 5x in terms of compute in case of apollo my belief is that it will be much more than 5x it is also not just about pure compute, b

> So even if a 3PA user cost 5x in terms of compute in case of apollo my belief is that it will be much more than 5x it is also not just about pure compute, but also paying salaries.

appletrotter 3y ago
> more than 5x doubt. the backend was open sourced to dispel this rumor. > salaries Salaries are a fixed cost, so not super relevant to API costs given what we already know. ARPU is ARPU. The amortized cost of a user to reddit is below or around ARPU (including R&D), unless they’re making the decision to still leave profit on the table in exchange for growth. However, given recent moves I doubt that.
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > doubt. the backend was open sourced to dispel this rumor. how its even relevant? Now that backend with unproven track record and unknown quality needs to handle petabytes of reddit data under significant load and with low latency. you can just do the math I proposed to do above: mau visits site few times a month, apollo users generate 250 reqs every day, how we can come to just 5x difference here? > Salaries are a fixed cost its fixed but significant and adds to final number.
  - appletrotter 3y ago
    > mau visits site few times a month To you, does MAU stand for monthly active user (singular noun?) > 250 reqs every day Do you know the difference between a request to the API and a site visit?
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      > To you, does MAU stand for monthly active user (singular noun?) correct. > Do you know the difference between a request to the API and a site visit? sure, you can incorporate your view on difference into you calculations of how you could arrive to 5x estimation.
      - appletrotter 3y ago
        > sure, you can incorporate your view on difference into you calculations of how you could arrive to 5x estimation. ?? Regardless, Reddit wouldn’t prioritize a singular monthly active user (MAU) mentioned in this context. It’s more valuable for Reddit to have users who consistently visit, whether through Apollo or the official Reddit app. As long as advertising is effective and API pricing is appropriate, Reddit can generate profit. From this perspective, what matters is the ratio of calls per view between different clients, not the type of user. It’s absurd to compare an inactive user on the official app with an active user on a third-party app. The issue at hand is unrelated to the cost of serving views or the potential revenue loss associated with those views. In my opinion, the motivation behind these actions is 70% in response to low-effort low-value moderators (LLMs) and 30% due to the convenient timing to remove third-party apps (3PAs).
        riku_iki 3y ago
        I asked you several times to show your math how you came to 5x. Please show if you really interested in meaningful discussion.
        appletrotter 3y ago
        > So even if a 3PA user cost 5x in terms of compute ... > I asked you several times to show your math how you came to 5x. Please show if you really interested in meaningful discussion. Consider this: The Apollo app could generate significantly more requests (5x, 10x, 20x, ... ?) to serve the exact same content and still not justify the new pricing it is being charged. In other words, the app would have to be incredibly inefficient, which doesn't align with Occam's razor. It seems more plausible that Reddit has made allegations that are only loosely based on fact, rather than Apollo being so inefficient despite its high-quality reputation. There is no specific mathematical calculation to present. I did not conduct benchmarks for you, if that's what you expected. Your argument revolves around comparing an active 3PA user with an inactive Reddit user, which is fundamentally flawed and easily refutable. I focused on that aspect because it is not a valid comparison.

> So even if a 3PA user cost 5x in terms of compute in case of apollo my belief is that it will be much more than 5x it is also not just about pure compute, but also paying salaries.

appletrotter 3y ago

> more than 5x doubt. the backend was open sourced to dispel this rumor. > salaries Salaries are a fixed cost, so not super relevant to API costs given what we already know. ARPU is ARPU. The amortized cost of a user to reddit is below or around ARPU (including R&D), unless they’re making the decision to still leave profit on the table in exchange for growth. However, given recent moves I doubt that.

riku_iki 3y ago
> doubt. the backend was open sourced to dispel this rumor. how its even relevant? Now that backend with unproven track record and unknown quality needs to handle petabytes of reddit data under significant load and with low latency. you can just do the math I proposed to do above: mau visits site few times a month, apollo users generate 250 reqs every day, how we can come to just 5x difference here? > Salaries are a fixed cost its fixed but significant and adds to final number.
- appletrotter 3y ago
  > mau visits site few times a month To you, does MAU stand for monthly active user (singular noun?) > 250 reqs every day Do you know the difference between a request to the API and a site visit?
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > To you, does MAU stand for monthly active user (singular noun?) correct. > Do you know the difference between a request to the API and a site visit? sure, you can incorporate your view on difference into you calculations of how you could arrive to 5x estimation.
    - appletrotter 3y ago
      > sure, you can incorporate your view on difference into you calculations of how you could arrive to 5x estimation. ?? Regardless, Reddit wouldn’t prioritize a singular monthly active user (MAU) mentioned in this context. It’s more valuable for Reddit to have users who consistently visit, whether through Apollo or the official Reddit app. As long as advertising is effective and API pricing is appropriate, Reddit can generate profit. From this perspective, what matters is the ratio of calls per view between different clients, not the type of user. It’s absurd to compare an inactive user on the official app with an active user on a third-party app. The issue at hand is unrelated to the cost of serving views or the potential revenue loss associated with those views. In my opinion, the motivation behind these actions is 70% in response to low-effort low-value moderators (LLMs) and 30% due to the convenient timing to remove third-party apps (3PAs).
      - riku_iki 3y ago
        I asked you several times to show your math how you came to 5x. Please show if you really interested in meaningful discussion.
        appletrotter 3y ago
        > So even if a 3PA user cost 5x in terms of compute ... > I asked you several times to show your math how you came to 5x. Please show if you really interested in meaningful discussion. Consider this: The Apollo app could generate significantly more requests (5x, 10x, 20x, ... ?) to serve the exact same content and still not justify the new pricing it is being charged. In other words, the app would have to be incredibly inefficient, which doesn't align with Occam's razor. It seems more plausible that Reddit has made allegations that are only loosely based on fact, rather than Apollo being so inefficient despite its high-quality reputation. There is no specific mathematical calculation to present. I did not conduct benchmarks for you, if that's what you expected. Your argument revolves around comparing an active 3PA user with an inactive Reddit user, which is fundamentally flawed and easily refutable. I focused on that aspect because it is not a valid comparison.