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There's a silent majority - "lurkers" - that the mods have completely ignored over the course of their tantrum. I've commented more in the past few days than i

There's a silent majority - "lurkers" - that the mods have completely ignored over the course of their tantrum. I've commented more in the past few days than i have in the past few months, because it's obvious the mods have completely lost perspective of the average user experience.

mrpopo 3y ago
Lurkers should also realize that their experience is shaped by mods decisions. For the better or for the worst, that's a good question, I guess we will soon find out. But given what FB groups look like, I have my own opinion.
- kitsunesoba 3y ago
  Also, lurkers would have nothing to lurk around if it weren't for heavier posters, many of whom use third party apps to paper over the various papercuts of posting with the official site/client.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    What do you think it would cost to buy a non insignificant amount Reddit accounts from power users to own their comments and remove them from Reddit? And if Reddit restores them, file DMCA takedowns? Should be cheap, right? With the value of Reddit users being so low? If that is where the value is being generated, that is Reddit's value lynch pin.
    - jcranmer 3y ago
      > And if Reddit restores them, file DMCA takedowns? Almost certainly, Reddit's terms of service means you grant them a irrevocable perpetual license to your posts, so a DMCA takedown would be in bad faith.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        There are no material repercussions for bad faith DMCA takedowns, as the evidence has shown [1]. The legal burden still falls on Reddit to triage and action them. With that said, you would want to own the Reddit accounts as IP in an LLC that holds no financial assets to shield you from any liability (not legal advice, we're just having fun talking hypotheticals). You'd own the copyright to the content, let Reddit try to argue in court the requests were bad faith. You didn't agree to the terms when the account changed hands, and you're now the owner. You wouldn't have to do it forever, only long enough to materially impact Reddit's valuation pre-IPO. This is simply flipping the "ask for forgiveness instead of permission" model of Silicon Valley on its head. Or is that only okay when you're trying to get obnoxiously wealthy off the backs of everyone else? [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=bad%20faith%20dmca&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
  - George83728 3y ago
    Reddit admins could automate the reposting of old content from years ago, complete with comments, and I think most doomscrolling lurkers would never notice.
    - wlonkly 3y ago
      Karma-point-harvesting bots do this already! Even comments -- one bot user reposts a popular post, and other bot users repost the top comments from the last time it was posted.
thrashh 3y ago
I mean that is how everything in life works. Most people lurk politically and are just pulled along by people who care.
- simonh 3y ago
  If they vote, they’re not lurkers. Even thumbs up-ing is useful engagement.
  - thrashh 3y ago
    Voting could either mean you spent 10 hours researching or you picked the name that you recognize the most. And the people who care are working to make sure you recognize the right names.
chongli 3y ago
Lurkers are pure consumers, free-riders. They produce nothing. They are valuable only to Reddit for their potential to be monetized. People like to say that users who post content care about lurkers because they want to be seen/heard. No. People who post content care about commenters (and up/downvoters at the bare minimum) who interact with them in meaningful ways, not lurkers. Lurkers are the cosmic neutrinos of social media: they pass through without leaving a trace. Reddit wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want millions of hours of unpaid labour from mods, posters, and commenters. And they want to control these people as if they were employees (by dictating what tools they're allowed/not allowed to use). This will not turn out well!
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > They are valuable only to Reddit for their potential to be monetized. yes, and fund service running. Looks like important part of the ecosystem.
  - chongli 3y ago
    Only for a centralized, corporate-owned system like Reddit. A volunteer-owned fediverse system can monetize via donations, Patreon-style. This changes the incentive structure: making the administrators accountable to the most invested people (power users).
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      > A volunteer-owned fediverse system can monetize via donations, Patreon-style does it exist and works on scale, or it is like communism where everyone will be happy, but it is never achievable and sustainable just because most of the people want money, power and free stuff.
      - predictabl3 3y ago
        Matrix has 20+ million users, and is federated.
ilyt 3y ago
I dunno, post on /r/games explaining why there were NOT going to black out is still sitting at 0 upvotes (a in "there is more downvotes than upvotes", with comments asking them to sitting on nice few k's of upvotes which would indicate that even people that never comment downvoted it and want the blackout. The few lurkers coming out of woodwork asking people to allow for enshittification to continue is by definition vocal minority
- a13o 3y ago
  Polls and vote counts can no longer be used to measure subreddit sentiment on this issue. That window closed once the first blackout began, which thrust low-information members into a situation where it looks like the subreddit suddenly shut down. The majority of redditors have no idea where their subreddits disappeared to, why, or when they will be back. Therefore, they can't participate in any votes. All sentiment measurements going forward will skew towards Very Online users following the drama closely, which GP is arguing will ignore a silent majority of the subreddit's actual MAU.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    > which GP is arguing will ignore a silent majority of the subreddit's actual MAU. ...while also claiming they're clairvoyant and know about what silent majority wants. Also arguably silent majority doesn't matter here because they are not the ones that *produce* any content to watch in the first place. The whole point of blackouts is for them to put pressure on Reddit, whether actively (complaining) or passively (not giving traffic)
OnlyLys 3y ago
> There's a silent majority - "lurkers" - that the mods have completely ignored What is there for the mods to ignore, when the lurkers are - as you said - silent?
- colpabar 3y ago
  This is just an anecdote, but I just went on my city's sub this morning to see how they were handling this. Apparently the (singular) mod did the initial blackout, then put up a poll on whether it should continue, the sub voted not to, and he is now holding another poll this weekend on the same topic and everyone seems to think it's because he didn't get the outcome he wanted the first time. I think all the people posting stuff like "reddit is DYING" are in for a rude awakening because the overwhelming majority of users do not give a single shit. They wanna see memes that confirm their biases and maybe see what is going on in their city/locality, and they can't do that if all their subs are blacked out.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    That's just honestly sub with a shitty mod, but there is certainly an argument to be made for better tools, sub blackout should not be something so easily implemented by single mod out of whole group. But I've seen both subs that asked mods, mods that unilaterally decided to blackout, and subs where users pleaded for blackout while power-hungry mods decided not to (presumable coz they were afraid reddit takes their playground from them)
  - bhaak 3y ago
    If that really is how it went the mod made a stupid mistake. If I were a power tripping mod, I would either just inform the sub about the subreddit taking part in the blackout. From the up and downvotes you can then already gauge the sentiment of the subreddit towards this issue and if the downvotes go south, you can always delete the post and do it anyway. But then you can't go and ask the sub about continuing the blackout. But as a power tripping mod I can't keep the subreddit private as then I would miss out on my power trip. So eventually I would open it up again, make a poll about continuing and as the sub will deny that I could keep it open and keep on power tripping while at the same time claiming that I only follow the sub's democratic decision.
jayd16 3y ago
Why would lurker opinions greatly differ from poster opinions?
- lazystar 3y ago
  When the mods said their blackout would be for 2 days, the silent majority rolled their eyes, but did not voice their opinions. Over the years we've all learned that folks who disagree with a mod's opinion will most likely get banned from the subreddit, so since the mods promised the subreddits would be back after 2 days, it wasn't worth arguing about. When the mods refused to bring the subreddits back after that time was up, they broke their promise - they've lost all the trust that the various communities had with them.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
carstenhag 3y ago
Should you rather care about the lurkers that provide no value to the community, or to the users that actually post something and make reddit reddit? For me the answer is clear. The first party app/website is terrible, riddled with annoying UX and dark patterns. Also, I still want 18+ content on Reddit!
oispakaljaa 3y ago
I identify as a lurker although I've made occasional posts and comments. I don't see how the mods are the problem here. Third part apps go, I go. It's that simple.

mrpopo 3y ago

Lurkers should also realize that their experience is shaped by mods decisions. For the better or for the worst, that's a good question, I guess we will soon find out. But given what FB groups look like, I have my own opinion.

kitsunesoba 3y ago
Also, lurkers would have nothing to lurk around if it weren't for heavier posters, many of whom use third party apps to paper over the various papercuts of posting with the official site/client.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  What do you think it would cost to buy a non insignificant amount Reddit accounts from power users to own their comments and remove them from Reddit? And if Reddit restores them, file DMCA takedowns? Should be cheap, right? With the value of Reddit users being so low? If that is where the value is being generated, that is Reddit's value lynch pin.
  - jcranmer 3y ago
    > And if Reddit restores them, file DMCA takedowns? Almost certainly, Reddit's terms of service means you grant them a irrevocable perpetual license to your posts, so a DMCA takedown would be in bad faith.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      There are no material repercussions for bad faith DMCA takedowns, as the evidence has shown [1]. The legal burden still falls on Reddit to triage and action them. With that said, you would want to own the Reddit accounts as IP in an LLC that holds no financial assets to shield you from any liability (not legal advice, we're just having fun talking hypotheticals). You'd own the copyright to the content, let Reddit try to argue in court the requests were bad faith. You didn't agree to the terms when the account changed hands, and you're now the owner. You wouldn't have to do it forever, only long enough to materially impact Reddit's valuation pre-IPO. This is simply flipping the "ask for forgiveness instead of permission" model of Silicon Valley on its head. Or is that only okay when you're trying to get obnoxiously wealthy off the backs of everyone else? [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=bad%20faith%20dmca&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- George83728 3y ago
  Reddit admins could automate the reposting of old content from years ago, complete with comments, and I think most doomscrolling lurkers would never notice.
  - wlonkly 3y ago
    Karma-point-harvesting bots do this already! Even comments -- one bot user reposts a popular post, and other bot users repost the top comments from the last time it was posted.

thrashh 3y ago

I mean that is how everything in life works. Most people lurk politically and are just pulled along by people who care.

simonh 3y ago
If they vote, they’re not lurkers. Even thumbs up-ing is useful engagement.
- thrashh 3y ago
  Voting could either mean you spent 10 hours researching or you picked the name that you recognize the most. And the people who care are working to make sure you recognize the right names.

chongli 3y ago

Lurkers are pure consumers, free-riders. They produce nothing. They are valuable only to Reddit for their potential to be monetized. People like to say that users who post content care about lurkers because they want to be seen/heard. No. People who post content care about commenters (and up/downvoters at the bare minimum) who interact with them in meaningful ways, not lurkers. Lurkers are the cosmic neutrinos of social media: they pass through without leaving a trace. Reddit wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want millions of hours of unpaid labour from mods, posters, and commenters. And they want to control these people as if they were employees (by dictating what tools they're allowed/not allowed to use). This will not turn out well!

riku_iki 3y ago
> They are valuable only to Reddit for their potential to be monetized. yes, and fund service running. Looks like important part of the ecosystem.
- chongli 3y ago
  Only for a centralized, corporate-owned system like Reddit. A volunteer-owned fediverse system can monetize via donations, Patreon-style. This changes the incentive structure: making the administrators accountable to the most invested people (power users).
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > A volunteer-owned fediverse system can monetize via donations, Patreon-style does it exist and works on scale, or it is like communism where everyone will be happy, but it is never achievable and sustainable just because most of the people want money, power and free stuff.
    - predictabl3 3y ago
      Matrix has 20+ million users, and is federated.

ilyt 3y ago

I dunno, post on /r/games explaining why there were NOT going to black out is still sitting at 0 upvotes (a in "there is more downvotes than upvotes", with comments asking them to sitting on nice few k's of upvotes which would indicate that even people that never comment downvoted it and want the blackout. The few lurkers coming out of woodwork asking people to allow for enshittification to continue is by definition vocal minority

a13o 3y ago
Polls and vote counts can no longer be used to measure subreddit sentiment on this issue. That window closed once the first blackout began, which thrust low-information members into a situation where it looks like the subreddit suddenly shut down. The majority of redditors have no idea where their subreddits disappeared to, why, or when they will be back. Therefore, they can't participate in any votes. All sentiment measurements going forward will skew towards Very Online users following the drama closely, which GP is arguing will ignore a silent majority of the subreddit's actual MAU.
- ilyt 3y ago
  > which GP is arguing will ignore a silent majority of the subreddit's actual MAU. ...while also claiming they're clairvoyant and know about what silent majority wants. Also arguably silent majority doesn't matter here because they are not the ones that *produce* any content to watch in the first place. The whole point of blackouts is for them to put pressure on Reddit, whether actively (complaining) or passively (not giving traffic)

OnlyLys 3y ago

> There's a silent majority - "lurkers" - that the mods have completely ignored What is there for the mods to ignore, when the lurkers are - as you said - silent?

colpabar 3y ago
This is just an anecdote, but I just went on my city's sub this morning to see how they were handling this. Apparently the (singular) mod did the initial blackout, then put up a poll on whether it should continue, the sub voted not to, and he is now holding another poll this weekend on the same topic and everyone seems to think it's because he didn't get the outcome he wanted the first time. I think all the people posting stuff like "reddit is DYING" are in for a rude awakening because the overwhelming majority of users do not give a single shit. They wanna see memes that confirm their biases and maybe see what is going on in their city/locality, and they can't do that if all their subs are blacked out.
- ilyt 3y ago
  That's just honestly sub with a shitty mod, but there is certainly an argument to be made for better tools, sub blackout should not be something so easily implemented by single mod out of whole group. But I've seen both subs that asked mods, mods that unilaterally decided to blackout, and subs where users pleaded for blackout while power-hungry mods decided not to (presumable coz they were afraid reddit takes their playground from them)
- bhaak 3y ago
  If that really is how it went the mod made a stupid mistake. If I were a power tripping mod, I would either just inform the sub about the subreddit taking part in the blackout. From the up and downvotes you can then already gauge the sentiment of the subreddit towards this issue and if the downvotes go south, you can always delete the post and do it anyway. But then you can't go and ask the sub about continuing the blackout. But as a power tripping mod I can't keep the subreddit private as then I would miss out on my power trip. So eventually I would open it up again, make a poll about continuing and as the sub will deny that I could keep it open and keep on power tripping while at the same time claiming that I only follow the sub's democratic decision.

jayd16 3y ago

Why would lurker opinions greatly differ from poster opinions?

lazystar 3y ago
When the mods said their blackout would be for 2 days, the silent majority rolled their eyes, but did not voice their opinions. Over the years we've all learned that folks who disagree with a mod's opinion will most likely get banned from the subreddit, so since the mods promised the subreddits would be back after 2 days, it wasn't worth arguing about. When the mods refused to bring the subreddits back after that time was up, they broke their promise - they've lost all the trust that the various communities had with them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

carstenhag 3y ago

Should you rather care about the lurkers that provide no value to the community, or to the users that actually post something and make reddit reddit? For me the answer is clear. The first party app/website is terrible, riddled with annoying UX and dark patterns. Also, I still want 18+ content on Reddit!

oispakaljaa 3y ago

I identify as a lurker although I've made occasional posts and comments. I don't see how the mods are the problem here. Third part apps go, I go. It's that simple.