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Also important to note that this is an indicator that Reddit has lost all trust from (this part of) the community. Even if that is a plausible explanations, man

Also important to note that this is an indicator that Reddit has lost all trust from (this part of) the community. Even if that is a plausible explanations, many will not give Reddit's current management the benefit of doubt. I simply would not put it past Hoffman to be that petty that he would do it, he seems to be taking after Musk more and more lately. Wasted so much goodwill. That will be tough to navigate for them, because once you have lost your user base's trust even an untrue allegation will cause a stir.

moomin 3y ago
The adage that “If you’re not paying for it, you’re the product” cuts both ways. Musk and Hoffman seem to be intent on waging war with their own product. They both get a lot of unpaid labour producing their content and then complain that the unpaid labour isn’t paying for the privilege.
- qzx_pierri 3y ago
  Huffman (spez) has his reasons for the reddit changes, but they do seem a bit short-sighted. But there comes a point where these online services have to make money. It's as simple as that. So is he waging war on users, or making a business decision? Also, Musk is waging war against advertisers. Running a site that is controlled by advertisers is the epitome of extreme centralization, since the site's income can be halted if an advertiser gets upset. Musk is charging on Twitter so the users aren't the product. As for reddit, I think limiting API access to accounts with reddit gold seems like it would've been fair. That would've solved the income issues (the stated reason for the API changes), but then reddit wouldn't get all the telemetry data associated with users on their first party app. It seems like Huffman (spez) got greedy and wanted gold subscriptions, and the telemetry data from their first party app. It's usually one or the other (ads vs. user payment). I also want to end this by saying that I'm not trying to start an argument, but I know a lot of users on this site are very trigger happy with the downvote whenever anyone speaks objectively about Musk. If you don't agree with me, just chime in and we can discuss it.
  - jmholla 3y ago
    > Musk is charging on Twitter so the users aren't the product. I think the adage is a little wrong. In Twitter's case users are still part of the product as the existing network effects and ability to communicate with users are part of the product, and thus it's users are. Not to such a significant degree as when advertisers are sweeping up every bit of data about you, but still to some degree.
    - qzx_pierri 3y ago
      > In Twitter's case users are still part of the product as the existing network effects This is a nitpick. I'm speaking from the POV of keeping the site running, or not resorting to changing the site's essence to please advertisers.
      - jmholla 3y ago
        My point was more in reference to GP's comment where even on a paid service, waging war on on users is waging war on your product. Though, after typing this out, that would seem to be even more so the case since that's where your money is coming from.
        qzx_pierri 3y ago
        Ah, that makes sense. Good point. +1
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > But there comes a point where these online services have to make money. Reddit is 18 old, and you're telling me that they are just thinking about making money now? How come 4chan and Wikipedia are both profitable, but not Reddit? And how is it a problem with their users and not their management?
    - qzx_pierri 3y ago
      > How come 4chan and Wikipedia are both profitable, but not Reddit reddit has 1.7 billion visits per month[5], with an astronomical amount of persistent storage, with the content never being deleted. reddit is ranked #18 globally. 4chan has 51 million visits per month[4], has very little persistent storage (posts are deleted once the thread slides to the bottom of the board list), and strict size limits for the posts that exist at any given time. 4chan is ranked #708 globally. Wikipedia does get 4.7 billion monthly visits[3], but they do have a public list of large donors[1], and the entire wikipedia catalog can fit onto a 20gb microSD card [2] So I can't give a solid answer, but it seems like the other 2 sites you mentioned have a slightly better design when it comes to infra costs. 1: https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/2018-annual-report/donors/#section-1 https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/2018-annual-report/don... 2: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data_dump_torrents#English_Wikipedia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data_dump_torrents#English_W... 3: https://www.similarweb.com/website/wikipedia.org/#overview https://www.similarweb.com/website/wikipedia.org/#overview 4: https://www.similarweb.com/website/4chan.org/#overview https://www.similarweb.com/website/4chan.org/#overview 5: https://www.similarweb.com/website/reddit.com/#overview https://www.similarweb.com/website/reddit.com/#overview
username332211 3y ago
I wouldn't read too much into it. It's not like the reddit community wasn't prone to paranoid suppositions. Just ask that moderator accused of being Ghislaine Maxwell.
- zoky 3y ago
  Yeah, so, at first I scoffed at the notion as well, but I kept following up on it, and… are we really so sure that it wasn’t Ghislaine Maxwell? I kept looking for them to post something, anything… but nothing. https://old.reddit.com/user/maxwellhill/ https://old.reddit.com/user/maxwellhill/ All it would have taken is a single post to prove that it really wasn’t her, but no. Radio silence. For over three years. It’s not like somebody is protesting being defamed here either… nobody has any idea who this person is, if not Ghislaine Maxwell herself. Do you have some proof that this isn’t her? Other than the assurance of a single other person, I have never seen any. I’ve been forced to re-examine my views on this, going from the idea that it’s utterly preposterous to, well, yeah, maybe it’s true. Do you have evidence to refute it? If so, please share. I really don’t want to believe it’s the case that an established sex-trafficker and pedophile/pedophile-enabler was one of the most influential mods on Reddit for over a decade, but at this point I’m having a hard time concluding otherwise.
  - mandmandam 3y ago
    Seconded. Sounds crazy, but the more you look into it [0]... And don't forget the blackmail! You know, which Huffman projected onto Apollo's developer, even after being proved a liar by Christian's recordings. This is actually quite important, because Huffman and 'maxwellhill' go way, way back. 0 - https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/r45a5n/here_is_the_evidence_that_reddit_user_maxwellhill/ https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/r45a5n/here_is_...
  - DismantleMars 3y ago
    I think the lack of activity since the conspiracy theory started could be easily explained by the user being creeped out by the witch hunt and abandoning their account. I know if I was accused of secretly being a hated figure like Maxwell on an account that wasn't connected my real identity, I wouldn't come out and deny it, I'd just ditch my account and make a new one. It also seems unlikely to me that someone like Ghislaine Maxwell would have the time to be such a prolific Reddit user, and that she would write like a Redditor - for example calling someone "butt-hurt" in one comment.
PragmaticPulp 3y ago
> Also important to note that this is an indicator that Reddit has lost all trust from (this part of) the community. Assuming the worst, ignoring details that violate the narrative, and circulating ragebait without verification are all staples of mainstream Reddit content. It’s not surprising that the Reddit outrage/grievance machine has turned on itself and is now assuming the worst and getting outraged at every turn.

moomin 3y ago

The adage that “If you’re not paying for it, you’re the product” cuts both ways. Musk and Hoffman seem to be intent on waging war with their own product. They both get a lot of unpaid labour producing their content and then complain that the unpaid labour isn’t paying for the privilege.

qzx_pierri 3y ago
Huffman (spez) has his reasons for the reddit changes, but they do seem a bit short-sighted. But there comes a point where these online services have to make money. It's as simple as that. So is he waging war on users, or making a business decision? Also, Musk is waging war against advertisers. Running a site that is controlled by advertisers is the epitome of extreme centralization, since the site's income can be halted if an advertiser gets upset. Musk is charging on Twitter so the users aren't the product. As for reddit, I think limiting API access to accounts with reddit gold seems like it would've been fair. That would've solved the income issues (the stated reason for the API changes), but then reddit wouldn't get all the telemetry data associated with users on their first party app. It seems like Huffman (spez) got greedy and wanted gold subscriptions, and the telemetry data from their first party app. It's usually one or the other (ads vs. user payment). I also want to end this by saying that I'm not trying to start an argument, but I know a lot of users on this site are very trigger happy with the downvote whenever anyone speaks objectively about Musk. If you don't agree with me, just chime in and we can discuss it.
- jmholla 3y ago
  > Musk is charging on Twitter so the users aren't the product. I think the adage is a little wrong. In Twitter's case users are still part of the product as the existing network effects and ability to communicate with users are part of the product, and thus it's users are. Not to such a significant degree as when advertisers are sweeping up every bit of data about you, but still to some degree.
  - qzx_pierri 3y ago
    > In Twitter's case users are still part of the product as the existing network effects This is a nitpick. I'm speaking from the POV of keeping the site running, or not resorting to changing the site's essence to please advertisers.
    - jmholla 3y ago
      My point was more in reference to GP's comment where even on a paid service, waging war on on users is waging war on your product. Though, after typing this out, that would seem to be even more so the case since that's where your money is coming from.
      - qzx_pierri 3y ago
        Ah, that makes sense. Good point. +1
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > But there comes a point where these online services have to make money. Reddit is 18 old, and you're telling me that they are just thinking about making money now? How come 4chan and Wikipedia are both profitable, but not Reddit? And how is it a problem with their users and not their management?
  - qzx_pierri 3y ago
    > How come 4chan and Wikipedia are both profitable, but not Reddit reddit has 1.7 billion visits per month[5], with an astronomical amount of persistent storage, with the content never being deleted. reddit is ranked #18 globally. 4chan has 51 million visits per month[4], has very little persistent storage (posts are deleted once the thread slides to the bottom of the board list), and strict size limits for the posts that exist at any given time. 4chan is ranked #708 globally. Wikipedia does get 4.7 billion monthly visits[3], but they do have a public list of large donors[1], and the entire wikipedia catalog can fit onto a 20gb microSD card [2] So I can't give a solid answer, but it seems like the other 2 sites you mentioned have a slightly better design when it comes to infra costs. 1: https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/2018-annual-report/donors/#section-1 https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/2018-annual-report/don... 2: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data_dump_torrents#English_Wikipedia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data_dump_torrents#English_W... 3: https://www.similarweb.com/website/wikipedia.org/#overview https://www.similarweb.com/website/wikipedia.org/#overview 4: https://www.similarweb.com/website/4chan.org/#overview https://www.similarweb.com/website/4chan.org/#overview 5: https://www.similarweb.com/website/reddit.com/#overview https://www.similarweb.com/website/reddit.com/#overview

username332211 3y ago

I wouldn't read too much into it. It's not like the reddit community wasn't prone to paranoid suppositions. Just ask that moderator accused of being Ghislaine Maxwell.

zoky 3y ago
Yeah, so, at first I scoffed at the notion as well, but I kept following up on it, and… are we really so sure that it wasn’t Ghislaine Maxwell? I kept looking for them to post something, anything… but nothing. https://old.reddit.com/user/maxwellhill/ https://old.reddit.com/user/maxwellhill/ All it would have taken is a single post to prove that it really wasn’t her, but no. Radio silence. For over three years. It’s not like somebody is protesting being defamed here either… nobody has any idea who this person is, if not Ghislaine Maxwell herself. Do you have some proof that this isn’t her? Other than the assurance of a single other person, I have never seen any. I’ve been forced to re-examine my views on this, going from the idea that it’s utterly preposterous to, well, yeah, maybe it’s true. Do you have evidence to refute it? If so, please share. I really don’t want to believe it’s the case that an established sex-trafficker and pedophile/pedophile-enabler was one of the most influential mods on Reddit for over a decade, but at this point I’m having a hard time concluding otherwise.
- mandmandam 3y ago
  Seconded. Sounds crazy, but the more you look into it [0]... And don't forget the blackmail! You know, which Huffman projected onto Apollo's developer, even after being proved a liar by Christian's recordings. This is actually quite important, because Huffman and 'maxwellhill' go way, way back. 0 - https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/r45a5n/here_is_the_evidence_that_reddit_user_maxwellhill/ https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/r45a5n/here_is_...
- DismantleMars 3y ago
  I think the lack of activity since the conspiracy theory started could be easily explained by the user being creeped out by the witch hunt and abandoning their account. I know if I was accused of secretly being a hated figure like Maxwell on an account that wasn't connected my real identity, I wouldn't come out and deny it, I'd just ditch my account and make a new one. It also seems unlikely to me that someone like Ghislaine Maxwell would have the time to be such a prolific Reddit user, and that she would write like a Redditor - for example calling someone "butt-hurt" in one comment.

PragmaticPulp 3y ago

> Also important to note that this is an indicator that Reddit has lost all trust from (this part of) the community. Assuming the worst, ignoring details that violate the narrative, and circulating ragebait without verification are all staples of mainstream Reddit content. It’s not surprising that the Reddit outrage/grievance machine has turned on itself and is now assuming the worst and getting outraged at every turn.