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I'm not sure, but I haven't seen places where devops team hire people without exp. I myself tried to get some interviews (I do have some dev exp, albeit data en

I'm not sure, but I haven't seen places where devops team hire people without exp. I myself tried to get some interviews (I do have some dev exp, albeit data engineering ones, not backend) to no avail. To this point I believe most companies don't hire green for the devops team.

dijit 3y ago
Forgive the linkedin link: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/junior-devops-engineer-jobs/?currentJobId=3617662694 https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/junior-devops-engineer-jobs/?c... No programming experience required (only some minor scripting in shell languages & a reference to education), in fact this job ad reads identically to a sysadmin job from 2014; in the middle of the "sysadmins can't code" zeitgeist, when all developing sysadmins had moved to become devops engineers or whatever. Copied from the ad: ----8<---- Your tasks: * Containerization and orchestration of our products for development, testing and production environments designed for cloud and on-premise solutions * Produce reference architectures and standardize solutions to streamline efficiencies within the business * Mitigate against Cybersecurity threats by ensuring systems are safe, secure and compliant to best practice recommendations (e.g. CIS Benchmarks, Vulnerability scans and Penetration tests) Your profile: * Finished studies in Computer Science or software engineering (Bachelor, Master) * Proficient understanding of virtualization, containerization and orchestration (e.g. Kubernetes, Podman) * Experience working with CI/CD tools such as Azure DevOps, Jenkins * Experience of Infrastructure as Code tools such as Ansible, Terraform, Helm * Scripting knowledge including bash, PowerShell * English fluently, German is an advantage; * Improvement-driven, structured and proactive team player, high sense for quality, open minded * Working in an agile environment (Scrum, Safe) ---->8----
- hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
  Yeah, a lot of JD reads like that, but hey why would anyone be proficient in these skills without dev exp? Or they are already a devops anyway. Proficient understanding of virtualization, containerization and orchestration (e.g. Kubernetes, Podman) Experience working with CI/CD tools such as Azure DevOps, Jenkins
- slyall 3y ago
  Requiring a Computer Science/Software Engineering degree for a non programming job is a little weird. The point is coding skills are not required to do the job. Sure it would be nice but if somebody ticks all the other boxes then being good at programming isn't important.
  - tyingq 3y ago
    Assuming these are the tools and processes that build and deploy your main product, I don't understand this comment. Sure, maybe some of the work isn't writing software. But some of it is, and it shouldn't be written by amateurs. Also, they are building these things for people who do write software. It would be hard to produce something that works for them without understanding what they do.
    - slyall 3y ago
      As somebody who does a job like this almost none of it involves writing software. 90% of what you write will be terraform and ansible. The remaining will be 20-50 line bash/python scripts. Reading code, understanding building and deployment are all useful and required to some extent (especially the latter). But specific programming skills are not required any more than that would be for say a technical writer or network engineer.
      - tyingq 3y ago
        I believe you, but I think this experience/job varies pretty wildly. That is, there are organizations where your job does involve writing software that's more than short scripts. If a company chooses "best of breed" for their pipelines, for example, there's quite a lot of integration between SCM, build tools, security tools, deployment tools, and so on. Doing that in a way that serves the end users well isn't always trivial.
  - dijit 3y ago
    Those education requirements almost always go out the window or can be ticked by passing Cisco certifications or something else vocational. (speaking from experience) What I'm trying to drive home here is that you do need programming experience to be a good sysadmin/devops/platform; back when devops as a job title was becoming "a thing"(tm) I was told over and over again that sysadmins couldn't code and thus we need devops. Now it seems devops don't need to be able to code (which you seem to think as well). So we will come up with a new term to cover programmers who understand systems.
- flushit 3y ago
  > Finished studies in Computer Science or software engineering (Bachelor, Master) That typically entails programming experience, especially in Germany.
dagw 3y ago
I believe most companies don't hire green for the devops team. Most companies do. Perhaps not top Silicon Valley tech companies with cutting edge needs and paying over $150k, but overall I've found that dev ops teams have plenty of jobs for 'green' team members. You just have to accept a 'green' salary and 'green' job responsibilities.
ransom1538 3y ago
"To this point I believe most companies don't hire green for the devops team." Yes. Devops people come from a SWE background generally + they understand infra. They usually have 10+ years experience. Most specialties work this way in software: security, devops, AI, ML, ... etc. You need to be a SWE first, then specialize.
- dagw 3y ago
  This is not what I've seen at many places I've worked it. Plenty of devops people with only basic programming background plus a AWS/Azure certification course or two. Also I work in AI/ML and hardly anybody has 10+ years of SWE experience before specialising. Most people start fresh out of a PhD or postdoc program or come from some sort of math or physics background.
  - TurboHaskal 3y ago
    In my experience, it used to be 60% former sysadmins that didn't know how to code or approach problems from a software engineering perspective, and 40% SWE who liked doing platform stuff. Now it's actually 80:20 due to software engineers becoming frustrated and disillusioned with the current state of things. Not only due to specialization and the push towards tool standardization (you don't get to build many custom components because we k8s all the things so most of the time you're just writing yaml/hcl), but because working with regular sysadmins gets extremely frustrating.
  - ransom1538 3y ago
    "Plenty of devops people with only basic programming background plus a AWS/Azure certification course or two." This could be the entire problem. These are specialized fields. They are being treated like they are not.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

dijit 3y ago

Forgive the linkedin link: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/junior-devops-engineer-jobs/?currentJobId=3617662694 https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/junior-devops-engineer-jobs/?c... No programming experience required (only some minor scripting in shell languages & a reference to education), in fact this job ad reads identically to a sysadmin job from 2014; in the middle of the "sysadmins can't code" zeitgeist, when all developing sysadmins had moved to become devops engineers or whatever. Copied from the ad: ----8<---- Your tasks: * Containerization and orchestration of our products for development, testing and production environments designed for cloud and on-premise solutions * Produce reference architectures and standardize solutions to streamline efficiencies within the business * Mitigate against Cybersecurity threats by ensuring systems are safe, secure and compliant to best practice recommendations (e.g. CIS Benchmarks, Vulnerability scans and Penetration tests) Your profile: * Finished studies in Computer Science or software engineering (Bachelor, Master) * Proficient understanding of virtualization, containerization and orchestration (e.g. Kubernetes, Podman) * Experience working with CI/CD tools such as Azure DevOps, Jenkins * Experience of Infrastructure as Code tools such as Ansible, Terraform, Helm * Scripting knowledge including bash, PowerShell * English fluently, German is an advantage; * Improvement-driven, structured and proactive team player, high sense for quality, open minded * Working in an agile environment (Scrum, Safe) ---->8----

hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
Yeah, a lot of JD reads like that, but hey why would anyone be proficient in these skills without dev exp? Or they are already a devops anyway. Proficient understanding of virtualization, containerization and orchestration (e.g. Kubernetes, Podman) Experience working with CI/CD tools such as Azure DevOps, Jenkins
slyall 3y ago
Requiring a Computer Science/Software Engineering degree for a non programming job is a little weird. The point is coding skills are not required to do the job. Sure it would be nice but if somebody ticks all the other boxes then being good at programming isn't important.
- tyingq 3y ago
  Assuming these are the tools and processes that build and deploy your main product, I don't understand this comment. Sure, maybe some of the work isn't writing software. But some of it is, and it shouldn't be written by amateurs. Also, they are building these things for people who do write software. It would be hard to produce something that works for them without understanding what they do.
  - slyall 3y ago
    As somebody who does a job like this almost none of it involves writing software. 90% of what you write will be terraform and ansible. The remaining will be 20-50 line bash/python scripts. Reading code, understanding building and deployment are all useful and required to some extent (especially the latter). But specific programming skills are not required any more than that would be for say a technical writer or network engineer.
    - tyingq 3y ago
      I believe you, but I think this experience/job varies pretty wildly. That is, there are organizations where your job does involve writing software that's more than short scripts. If a company chooses "best of breed" for their pipelines, for example, there's quite a lot of integration between SCM, build tools, security tools, deployment tools, and so on. Doing that in a way that serves the end users well isn't always trivial.
- dijit 3y ago
  Those education requirements almost always go out the window or can be ticked by passing Cisco certifications or something else vocational. (speaking from experience) What I'm trying to drive home here is that you do need programming experience to be a good sysadmin/devops/platform; back when devops as a job title was becoming "a thing"(tm) I was told over and over again that sysadmins couldn't code and thus we need devops. Now it seems devops don't need to be able to code (which you seem to think as well). So we will come up with a new term to cover programmers who understand systems.
flushit 3y ago
> Finished studies in Computer Science or software engineering (Bachelor, Master) That typically entails programming experience, especially in Germany.

dagw 3y ago

I believe most companies don't hire green for the devops team. Most companies do. Perhaps not top Silicon Valley tech companies with cutting edge needs and paying over $150k, but overall I've found that dev ops teams have plenty of jobs for 'green' team members. You just have to accept a 'green' salary and 'green' job responsibilities.

ransom1538 3y ago

"To this point I believe most companies don't hire green for the devops team." Yes. Devops people come from a SWE background generally + they understand infra. They usually have 10+ years experience. Most specialties work this way in software: security, devops, AI, ML, ... etc. You need to be a SWE first, then specialize.

dagw 3y ago
This is not what I've seen at many places I've worked it. Plenty of devops people with only basic programming background plus a AWS/Azure certification course or two. Also I work in AI/ML and hardly anybody has 10+ years of SWE experience before specialising. Most people start fresh out of a PhD or postdoc program or come from some sort of math or physics background.
- TurboHaskal 3y ago
  In my experience, it used to be 60% former sysadmins that didn't know how to code or approach problems from a software engineering perspective, and 40% SWE who liked doing platform stuff. Now it's actually 80:20 due to software engineers becoming frustrated and disillusioned with the current state of things. Not only due to specialization and the push towards tool standardization (you don't get to build many custom components because we k8s all the things so most of the time you're just writing yaml/hcl), but because working with regular sysadmins gets extremely frustrating.
- ransom1538 3y ago
  "Plenty of devops people with only basic programming background plus a AWS/Azure certification course or two." This could be the entire problem. These are specialized fields. They are being treated like they are not.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]