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My 14+-year-old laptop not just receives security updates. It runs the latest Debian without any problem and I see no end to this. What's the problem with phone

My 14+-year-old laptop not just receives security updates. It runs the latest Debian without any problem and I see no end to this. What's the problem with phones?

eloisant 3y ago
My understanding is the chip makers, not just Apple but for Android that's Qualcomm, Samsung, etc. Apparently only the chip makers have the necessary info to release the drivers for the latest Linux kernel, unlike your laptop where newer versions of Linux can always be recompiled for your hardware without help from Intel or AMD. This is also why 3rd party Android distribution have to provide separate images for each device, while Debian can distribute a single image that works on any x86 machine.
- fsflover 3y ago
  You are not wrong, but the phone manufacturer could search for chips respecting the users if they really wanted. My GNU/Linux smartphones (Librem 5 and Pinephone) will work just like my laptop, with indefinite software updates.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    Apple employs the best chip designers on the planet and even they are struggling to make cellular chips that are as good as Qualcomm. And your phone isn’t going to last forever, carriers turn off older protocols and your phone is going to magically work with the newer ones.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      Apple intentionally chooses proprietary chip designers not respecting users' freedom. It forces users to regularly buy new devices and brings a lot of profit to Apple. (Apple doesn't care about the respective damage to the environment.) My phone is a general-purpose computer, which can be used to communicate without a mobile carrier if necessary. Also it allows to replace the modem with another one: it's on an M.2 card.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        Who else are they suppose to choose that can make a performant 5G chip? And users don’t “regularly” have to buy new devices. The 2013 iPhone 5s is the first iPhone that supports LTE and it just got a security update this year. And how much larger and less battery efficient would a phone with a card be? What about the surrounding hardware? Could you just throw a 5G chip in a 2009 iPhone 3G?
the_overseer 3y ago
Most people don't run 14+ year-old laptops. The market share of those people is too small to care about. You are just lucky somebody still writes drivers for your outdated tech. I wouldn't use a laptop older than 5 years if you paid me. Why the hell would I torture myself with a laptop from before 2010? The screen quality must be horrendeous. Speakers absolute trash. Battery life also garbage. What is the point of doing this to yourself? Just to be able to show off on HN and other nerd sites where everybody still uses cassette players because they were "tOtAllY cOoL BrO".
- fsflover 3y ago
  This is a strawman. It's not your business why I need an old laptop. This is wrong to prevent me from using it on the grounds of my own (dis)comfort. Did you hear about thin clients or security through isolation? I don't want to throw away a working device if I can find a use for it. Unlike Apple, I care for the environment.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    Yes that mean old Apple is only supporting iPhones 10 years old and the first one that works with LTE…
  - the_overseer 3y ago
    No one is preventing you from using it. Let me put it the other way: why should people work to support your old device? You are causing discomfort for others by forcing devs to pollute their codebase with code to support your obsolete technology. What if after a number of years (<= 10 years) you would have to pay devs to support your hardware? That seems more fair to me than simply expecting your stuff to still be supported for free. Except I'll tell you what will happen: you will buy a newer device. Because it's cheaper than paying devs' salaries. I fully expect after a number of years of using a device to receive a message: "Your device is unsupported as of now. Buy a newer one. We won't waste our lives supporting your stuff for free. Sorry, but not sorry." How much wasted time is there in the linux kernel supporting old devices I wonder? At some point they will surely go for a great purge in the kernel to get rid of the old stuff. The thing is just getting more and more bloated.
scarface_74 3y ago
Who are you willing to pay to keep your phone updated forever?
- fsflover 3y ago
  Purism and Debian?
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    And you can buy an Android phone for that - problem solved.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      For what? Android won't provide lifetime updates.

My 14+-year-old laptop not just receives security updates. It runs the latest Debian without any problem and I see no end to this. What's the problem with phones?

eloisant 3y ago

My understanding is the chip makers, not just Apple but for Android that's Qualcomm, Samsung, etc. Apparently only the chip makers have the necessary info to release the drivers for the latest Linux kernel, unlike your laptop where newer versions of Linux can always be recompiled for your hardware without help from Intel or AMD. This is also why 3rd party Android distribution have to provide separate images for each device, while Debian can distribute a single image that works on any x86 machine.

fsflover 3y ago
You are not wrong, but the phone manufacturer could search for chips respecting the users if they really wanted. My GNU/Linux smartphones (Librem 5 and Pinephone) will work just like my laptop, with indefinite software updates.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Apple employs the best chip designers on the planet and even they are struggling to make cellular chips that are as good as Qualcomm. And your phone isn’t going to last forever, carriers turn off older protocols and your phone is going to magically work with the newer ones.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    Apple intentionally chooses proprietary chip designers not respecting users' freedom. It forces users to regularly buy new devices and brings a lot of profit to Apple. (Apple doesn't care about the respective damage to the environment.) My phone is a general-purpose computer, which can be used to communicate without a mobile carrier if necessary. Also it allows to replace the modem with another one: it's on an M.2 card.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      Who else are they suppose to choose that can make a performant 5G chip? And users don’t “regularly” have to buy new devices. The 2013 iPhone 5s is the first iPhone that supports LTE and it just got a security update this year. And how much larger and less battery efficient would a phone with a card be? What about the surrounding hardware? Could you just throw a 5G chip in a 2009 iPhone 3G?

the_overseer 3y ago

Most people don't run 14+ year-old laptops. The market share of those people is too small to care about. You are just lucky somebody still writes drivers for your outdated tech. I wouldn't use a laptop older than 5 years if you paid me. Why the hell would I torture myself with a laptop from before 2010? The screen quality must be horrendeous. Speakers absolute trash. Battery life also garbage. What is the point of doing this to yourself? Just to be able to show off on HN and other nerd sites where everybody still uses cassette players because they were "tOtAllY cOoL BrO".

fsflover 3y ago
This is a strawman. It's not your business why I need an old laptop. This is wrong to prevent me from using it on the grounds of my own (dis)comfort. Did you hear about thin clients or security through isolation? I don't want to throw away a working device if I can find a use for it. Unlike Apple, I care for the environment.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Yes that mean old Apple is only supporting iPhones 10 years old and the first one that works with LTE…
- the_overseer 3y ago
  No one is preventing you from using it. Let me put it the other way: why should people work to support your old device? You are causing discomfort for others by forcing devs to pollute their codebase with code to support your obsolete technology. What if after a number of years (<= 10 years) you would have to pay devs to support your hardware? That seems more fair to me than simply expecting your stuff to still be supported for free. Except I'll tell you what will happen: you will buy a newer device. Because it's cheaper than paying devs' salaries. I fully expect after a number of years of using a device to receive a message: "Your device is unsupported as of now. Buy a newer one. We won't waste our lives supporting your stuff for free. Sorry, but not sorry." How much wasted time is there in the linux kernel supporting old devices I wonder? At some point they will surely go for a great purge in the kernel to get rid of the old stuff. The thing is just getting more and more bloated.

scarface_74 3y ago

Who are you willing to pay to keep your phone updated forever?

fsflover 3y ago
Purism and Debian?
- scarface_74 3y ago
  And you can buy an Android phone for that - problem solved.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    For what? Android won't provide lifetime updates.