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> CTO I've worked with said that developers are like "machines working in a factory" that they shouldn't think above their level and should just do the same thi

> CTO I've worked with said that developers are like "machines working in a factory" that they shouldn't think above their level and should just do the same thing over and over. This shows how important it is to learn about a company, it's culture, philosophy, and values before joining. I can see how some people operate like this, and I don't want to work with them. For anyone reading this who thinks all companies are like the one that parent described, I want to share that it is not true. There are plenty of companies who based their collaboration with their workers on other mental models than cogs-in-the-machine.

koito17 3y ago
> learn about a company, it's culture, philosophy, and values before joining. I may sound dumb, but how does one do this? What question would you ask in an interview in order to determine whether the management are apathetic to their users or employees? The three interviews I did at my current company gave me a glimpse into the culture, but only a surface-level "first impression" kind of knowledge. With that said, I think I successfully ascertained the company's vision with the product I'm working on, but that's way easier to learn than culture IMO.
- smugma 3y ago
  “Tell me about a time when Engineering changed the product direction…” Open-ended questions like that.
  - wellanyway 3y ago
    99% of us are intervieved by HR and a dev. This sounds like a question for a CEO or head of product.
    - est31 3y ago
      Those might be the people who are the subjects of that story, but the story might be known around the company.
      - Ansik 3y ago
        That's a good point. I'd go further to argue that if stories like that aren't known around the company (or at least by the staff hiring you), it could itself be seen as an orange, if not red, flag.
    - ilyt 3y ago
      ...you think dev wouldn't notice if the product they are making changed direction ?
    - btilly 3y ago
      No, that's a question for a dev. If the CEO can tell you about how engineering changed the product, but the dev can't, then your experience is going to match the dev's. And the part of "engineering" that changed the product was almost certainly not a dev. Besides, it is common for CEOs to think that they are more responsive than they really are. And they are generally better at marketing than truth. So for both reasons, I would not trust their answer unless it is backed up by the rank and file.
- korijn 3y ago
  Ask if you can meet (anyone from) your potential team and ask them directly.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- koliber 3y ago
  That's a great question! There is no single approach. It's a soft skill. I don't think there is a single magic question you can ask and you'll get a black-and-white answer. Here are some ideas: - read about the company on glassdoor. Try to read between the lines. Are the reviews fluff? Are there any veiled criticisms. Read the high praises and the vulgar criticisms with a grain of salt. They are a signal, but people often have an agenda or are led by emotion when they post like that. Pay attention to the mixed reviews who give you the good and some bad. See if there are any patterns between reviews. - I hope you will have an interview with either the hiring manager, or one or more peers. Ask them questions about how it is to work there. Find way to ask without asking "How is it working there?" directly. Some ideas: - Am I joining because the team is growing, or am I replacing someone? If replacing, why did the person before me leave? - How long have the people on the team I am joining been there? You're looking to get a feel for tenure and seniority. - How often do you speak with your manager? Their manager? The CTO? The CEO? In general, the more often, and the more approachable leadership is, the less likely you're thought of as a cog and seen more as a human. - Ask if they could give a concrete example of how their values or principles have been used in practice recently. Make sure you read these ahead of time. If they can't tell, then their values might be bullet points on a glossy brochure that have no application in reality. If they don't know their values, that means no one cares about them. - How often do you have to work overtime? Is it normal? Is it occasional? How is that recognized? How is that seen? - Ask how they define and recognize excellence on their team. Listen to the story they tell. Is it mechanical? Do you get a non-answer? A blank stare? Draw your own conclusions. This is not a set of checkboxes. The best companies are not perfect. The worst companies do some things right (I would hope). It gets easier with time, as you get more experiences under your belt, you'll understand where you fit and where you don't. You'll build a gut feeling for this.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  >I may sound dumb, but how does one do this? Read reviews on Glassdoor.com. Take them with a grain of salt, but if you see a lot of reviews all saying similar things about the management, it's probably true.
mordae 3y ago
No, it shows that we need to build companies where employees have stake in the company and means to affect it's direction. Because otherwise you are always fighting an uphill battle and get boiled like a frog when things inevitably start to go south.
- nickserv 3y ago
  Something about workers owning the means of production...
  - mordae 3y ago
    Quite. https://www.ica.coop/en/cooperatives/cooperative-identity https://www.ica.coop/en/cooperatives/cooperative-identity
- nemo44x 3y ago
  Isn’t this what a joint-stock company does? Anyone can purchase shares (in privately held companies its more difficult but often possible) which grants them proportional votes for things that the board of directors lay out. Every tech company I know of grants workers options/stock. What more is fair? What is it about worker status that should grant them outsized influence on a company and not, say, customers? Of course a joint-stock company allows customers to put skin in the game too (which a worker does not simply by being a worker) and giving them influence in addition to their ability to “vote with their wallet”. It solves all these problems and avoids the adversarial relationship issues.
johannes1234321 3y ago
> For anyone reading this who thinks all companies are like the one that parent described, I want to share that it is not true. There are plenty of companies who based their collaboration with their workers on other mental models than cogs-in-the-machine. It's even more complex. While top management might give a rough direction, even within a single company different managers may create way different environments.
lloeki 3y ago
> This shows how important it is to learn about a company, it's culture, philosophy, and values before joining. I can't recall the exact quote so paraphrasing here, I recall the gist of someone saying: > When deciding whether or not to join a group of people, take a long hard look at people already there, how they work, how they think, and if there's something that you see and don't want to turn into, bail out. Because you're going to join a group of, say, 10 people, and in all likelihood these 10 people will change you, whereas the chances of a single individual changing 10 people are slim at best, and more realistically and bluntly put, nonexistent. So the three choices are a) run away, b) join and embrace (or cave in, depending on how you put it, which may or may not be toxic for you), and c) join but resist (which will be toxic for everyone)
- bombcar 3y ago
  One of the most prominent examples is voting; few people remain true single issue voters and instead begin to take on all aspects of their party.

koito17 3y ago

> learn about a company, it's culture, philosophy, and values before joining. I may sound dumb, but how does one do this? What question would you ask in an interview in order to determine whether the management are apathetic to their users or employees? The three interviews I did at my current company gave me a glimpse into the culture, but only a surface-level "first impression" kind of knowledge. With that said, I think I successfully ascertained the company's vision with the product I'm working on, but that's way easier to learn than culture IMO.

smugma 3y ago
“Tell me about a time when Engineering changed the product direction…” Open-ended questions like that.
- wellanyway 3y ago
  99% of us are intervieved by HR and a dev. This sounds like a question for a CEO or head of product.
  - est31 3y ago
    Those might be the people who are the subjects of that story, but the story might be known around the company.
    - Ansik 3y ago
      That's a good point. I'd go further to argue that if stories like that aren't known around the company (or at least by the staff hiring you), it could itself be seen as an orange, if not red, flag.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    ...you think dev wouldn't notice if the product they are making changed direction ?
  - btilly 3y ago
    No, that's a question for a dev. If the CEO can tell you about how engineering changed the product, but the dev can't, then your experience is going to match the dev's. And the part of "engineering" that changed the product was almost certainly not a dev. Besides, it is common for CEOs to think that they are more responsive than they really are. And they are generally better at marketing than truth. So for both reasons, I would not trust their answer unless it is backed up by the rank and file.
korijn 3y ago
Ask if you can meet (anyone from) your potential team and ask them directly.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
koliber 3y ago
That's a great question! There is no single approach. It's a soft skill. I don't think there is a single magic question you can ask and you'll get a black-and-white answer. Here are some ideas: - read about the company on glassdoor. Try to read between the lines. Are the reviews fluff? Are there any veiled criticisms. Read the high praises and the vulgar criticisms with a grain of salt. They are a signal, but people often have an agenda or are led by emotion when they post like that. Pay attention to the mixed reviews who give you the good and some bad. See if there are any patterns between reviews. - I hope you will have an interview with either the hiring manager, or one or more peers. Ask them questions about how it is to work there. Find way to ask without asking "How is it working there?" directly. Some ideas: - Am I joining because the team is growing, or am I replacing someone? If replacing, why did the person before me leave? - How long have the people on the team I am joining been there? You're looking to get a feel for tenure and seniority. - How often do you speak with your manager? Their manager? The CTO? The CEO? In general, the more often, and the more approachable leadership is, the less likely you're thought of as a cog and seen more as a human. - Ask if they could give a concrete example of how their values or principles have been used in practice recently. Make sure you read these ahead of time. If they can't tell, then their values might be bullet points on a glossy brochure that have no application in reality. If they don't know their values, that means no one cares about them. - How often do you have to work overtime? Is it normal? Is it occasional? How is that recognized? How is that seen? - Ask how they define and recognize excellence on their team. Listen to the story they tell. Is it mechanical? Do you get a non-answer? A blank stare? Draw your own conclusions. This is not a set of checkboxes. The best companies are not perfect. The worst companies do some things right (I would hope). It gets easier with time, as you get more experiences under your belt, you'll understand where you fit and where you don't. You'll build a gut feeling for this.
midoridensha 3y ago
>I may sound dumb, but how does one do this? Read reviews on Glassdoor.com. Take them with a grain of salt, but if you see a lot of reviews all saying similar things about the management, it's probably true.

mordae 3y ago

No, it shows that we need to build companies where employees have stake in the company and means to affect it's direction. Because otherwise you are always fighting an uphill battle and get boiled like a frog when things inevitably start to go south.

nickserv 3y ago
Something about workers owning the means of production...
- mordae 3y ago
  Quite. https://www.ica.coop/en/cooperatives/cooperative-identity https://www.ica.coop/en/cooperatives/cooperative-identity
nemo44x 3y ago
Isn’t this what a joint-stock company does? Anyone can purchase shares (in privately held companies its more difficult but often possible) which grants them proportional votes for things that the board of directors lay out. Every tech company I know of grants workers options/stock. What more is fair? What is it about worker status that should grant them outsized influence on a company and not, say, customers? Of course a joint-stock company allows customers to put skin in the game too (which a worker does not simply by being a worker) and giving them influence in addition to their ability to “vote with their wallet”. It solves all these problems and avoids the adversarial relationship issues.

johannes1234321 3y ago

> For anyone reading this who thinks all companies are like the one that parent described, I want to share that it is not true. There are plenty of companies who based their collaboration with their workers on other mental models than cogs-in-the-machine. It's even more complex. While top management might give a rough direction, even within a single company different managers may create way different environments.

lloeki 3y ago

> This shows how important it is to learn about a company, it's culture, philosophy, and values before joining. I can't recall the exact quote so paraphrasing here, I recall the gist of someone saying: > When deciding whether or not to join a group of people, take a long hard look at people already there, how they work, how they think, and if there's something that you see and don't want to turn into, bail out. Because you're going to join a group of, say, 10 people, and in all likelihood these 10 people will change you, whereas the chances of a single individual changing 10 people are slim at best, and more realistically and bluntly put, nonexistent. So the three choices are a) run away, b) join and embrace (or cave in, depending on how you put it, which may or may not be toxic for you), and c) join but resist (which will be toxic for everyone)

bombcar 3y ago
One of the most prominent examples is voting; few people remain true single issue voters and instead begin to take on all aspects of their party.