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Except pretty much everyone thinks the CCS2 connector sucks compared to the Tesla connector. The EU ought to mandate the Tesla connector instead. We're still in

Except pretty much everyone thinks the CCS2 connector sucks compared to the Tesla connector. The EU ought to mandate the Tesla connector instead. We're still in early days, no need to worry about the tiny number of cars that have already shipped.

clouddrover 3y ago
> Except pretty much everyone thinks the CCS2 connector sucks They don't, it doesn't, it works, and it's deployed internationally on all cars and chargers. No point making up a false narrative.
theluketaylor 3y ago
Type 2 supports 3-phase AC, something both CCS combo 1 and NACS don’t. That alone would make a transition in Europe a terrible idea, especially since the Tesla connector doesn’t even seem to have a path to 3-phase support. Yes, Type 2 Combo 2 is a bit bulky, but otherwise it’s perfectly fine.
- cbeach 3y ago
  Three phase is a red herring. No consumer needs to use all three phases to charge their car at home overnight. You’ll wake up to a fully charged car every day on single phase, as the vast majority of us do. Same applies even with the slightly weaker current per phase on continental Europe. The parts of Europe limited to 25A would still allow for a full overnight charge. The EU voltage is 220V, so 25*220 = 5.5kW. Assuming a 75kWh usable capacity on the Model Y, that means the rare occasions where you’re charging from 0-100% overnight would take 13.6 hours. The real test of charging hardware is on long journeys where we want to keep the charge time to a minimum, and where Tesla’a NACS 1MW capability is a huge benefit to consumers vs CCS If you believe the EU’s CCS mandate is a good thing, you’re not paying attention
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    > No consumer needs to use all three phases to charge their car at home overnight. The Renault Zoe can do 22 kW AC charging. There are public AC chargers too. They are cheaper to deploy than DC chargers. > The real test of charging hardware is on long journeys where we want to keep the charge time to a minimum, and where Tesla’a NACS 1MW capability is a huge benefit to consumers vs CCS So.. you claim no consumer needs "all three phases" for AC charging but now you're insisting consumers need 1 megawatt DC charging on passenger cars, cheerfully ignoring the fact that there is no deployment of 1 megawatt chargers for passenger vehicles and no current passenger car can sustain 1 megawatt charging at any part of its charge curve. Make up your mind. And while you're making it up, understand that there's nothing preventing a revision to the CCS type 2 Combo plug and cable standards to spec faster charging. The Tesla plug is just about the cable and plug. It's the least interesting part of any charger. > If you believe the EU’s CCS mandate is a good thing, you’re not paying attention I'd like to pay attention to your manifesto on how CCS type 2 Combo is a bad thing when the European EV market is bigger than the North American market, when all brands of charger charge all brands of EV in Europe, when CCS type 2 Combo is deployed in many countries outside of Europe, and when 400 kW CCS chargers are being deployed while Tesla's chargers still max out at 250 kW: https://electrek.co/2023/06/08/evbox-400-kw-ev-charger/ https://electrek.co/2023/06/08/evbox-400-kw-ev-charger/
    - cbeach 3y ago
      > The Renault Zoe can do 22 kW AC charging. There are public AC chargers too. They are cheaper to deploy than DC chargers Maybe ten years ago, a 22kW public charger might have seemed reasonable. Now public chargers operate on DC, at 350kW and beyond, it seems a bit anachronistic to be discussing 22kW AC public charging. > So.. you claim no consumer needs "all three phases" for AC charging but now you're insisting consumers need 1 megawatt DC charging on passenger cars … make up your mind I think you perhaps misunderstood the distinction I made between home charging (single phase AC is fine, as we can leave the car overnight) and public charging, which is relied on during long journeys, and for which 100kW+ DC is essential for practicality.
      - clouddrover 3y ago
  - theluketaylor 3y ago
    3-phase is not really for consumers. It’s for commercial and fleet operations where a 3-phase AC charging setup can deliver far more power with much lower amperage circuits. When installing chargers for an entire 15+ storey apartment building or making sure a fleet of 10+ vehicles can all charge overnight 3-phase suddenly makes life a lot easier and can reduce the cost of install significantly.

clouddrover 3y ago

> Except pretty much everyone thinks the CCS2 connector sucks They don't, it doesn't, it works, and it's deployed internationally on all cars and chargers. No point making up a false narrative.

theluketaylor 3y ago

Type 2 supports 3-phase AC, something both CCS combo 1 and NACS don’t. That alone would make a transition in Europe a terrible idea, especially since the Tesla connector doesn’t even seem to have a path to 3-phase support. Yes, Type 2 Combo 2 is a bit bulky, but otherwise it’s perfectly fine.

cbeach 3y ago
Three phase is a red herring. No consumer needs to use all three phases to charge their car at home overnight. You’ll wake up to a fully charged car every day on single phase, as the vast majority of us do. Same applies even with the slightly weaker current per phase on continental Europe. The parts of Europe limited to 25A would still allow for a full overnight charge. The EU voltage is 220V, so 25*220 = 5.5kW. Assuming a 75kWh usable capacity on the Model Y, that means the rare occasions where you’re charging from 0-100% overnight would take 13.6 hours. The real test of charging hardware is on long journeys where we want to keep the charge time to a minimum, and where Tesla’a NACS 1MW capability is a huge benefit to consumers vs CCS If you believe the EU’s CCS mandate is a good thing, you’re not paying attention
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > No consumer needs to use all three phases to charge their car at home overnight. The Renault Zoe can do 22 kW AC charging. There are public AC chargers too. They are cheaper to deploy than DC chargers. > The real test of charging hardware is on long journeys where we want to keep the charge time to a minimum, and where Tesla’a NACS 1MW capability is a huge benefit to consumers vs CCS So.. you claim no consumer needs "all three phases" for AC charging but now you're insisting consumers need 1 megawatt DC charging on passenger cars, cheerfully ignoring the fact that there is no deployment of 1 megawatt chargers for passenger vehicles and no current passenger car can sustain 1 megawatt charging at any part of its charge curve. Make up your mind. And while you're making it up, understand that there's nothing preventing a revision to the CCS type 2 Combo plug and cable standards to spec faster charging. The Tesla plug is just about the cable and plug. It's the least interesting part of any charger. > If you believe the EU’s CCS mandate is a good thing, you’re not paying attention I'd like to pay attention to your manifesto on how CCS type 2 Combo is a bad thing when the European EV market is bigger than the North American market, when all brands of charger charge all brands of EV in Europe, when CCS type 2 Combo is deployed in many countries outside of Europe, and when 400 kW CCS chargers are being deployed while Tesla's chargers still max out at 250 kW: https://electrek.co/2023/06/08/evbox-400-kw-ev-charger/ https://electrek.co/2023/06/08/evbox-400-kw-ev-charger/
  - cbeach 3y ago
    > The Renault Zoe can do 22 kW AC charging. There are public AC chargers too. They are cheaper to deploy than DC chargers Maybe ten years ago, a 22kW public charger might have seemed reasonable. Now public chargers operate on DC, at 350kW and beyond, it seems a bit anachronistic to be discussing 22kW AC public charging. > So.. you claim no consumer needs "all three phases" for AC charging but now you're insisting consumers need 1 megawatt DC charging on passenger cars … make up your mind I think you perhaps misunderstood the distinction I made between home charging (single phase AC is fine, as we can leave the car overnight) and public charging, which is relied on during long journeys, and for which 100kW+ DC is essential for practicality.
    - clouddrover 3y ago
- theluketaylor 3y ago
  3-phase is not really for consumers. It’s for commercial and fleet operations where a 3-phase AC charging setup can deliver far more power with much lower amperage circuits. When installing chargers for an entire 15+ storey apartment building or making sure a fleet of 10+ vehicles can all charge overnight 3-phase suddenly makes life a lot easier and can reduce the cost of install significantly.