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> They are trying to keep the main, core userbase happy. But there's a very simple way to do that... sit down with people, figure out a solution that doesn't i

by atraac 3y ago

> They are trying to keep the main, core userbase happy. But there's a very simple way to do that... sit down with people, figure out a solution that doesn't involve a single dev spending 20m USD a year just to maintain an app that people like. There's multitudes of ways this whole thing could've been solved, they clearly don't wont to solve it. Paid API is NOT going to make reddit profitable, especially at this price. It's funny to me that anyone actually even believes that. Hosting costs are not the problem, they have 2000 employees. For a site that can't get any feature fully functioning, has one of the worst ads in the business that noone wants to buy and is almost fully maintained by community for free, it's quite a lot of employees.

goykasi 3y ago
100% agreement with you here. You have one of the first logical arguments for any push back. > figure out a solution that doesn't involve a single dev spending 20m USD a year just to maintain an app that people like Absolutely, I was hoping that would happen when I saw the first Apollo thread(s) a few weeks ago. But Christian took this very personally, and he decided to take his toys and go home. reddit is not at all innocent here. They definitely had many missteps, but I think both sides did. And now that talks have broken down, reddit has little reason to come back to the table. > Paid API is NOT going to make reddit profitable, especially at this price. It's funny to me that anyone actually even believes that. Hosting costs are not the problem, they have 2000 employees. For a site that can't get any feature fully functioning, has one of the worst ads in the business that noone wants to buy and is almost fully maintained by community for free, it's quite a lot of employees. This is the heart of it for me personally. reddit has much bigger problems than just the API hosting/pricing. Drawing the line in the sand about the API and profitability doesnt make a lot of sense. Having 2000 employees (why?), hosting images and videos (value?), nfts (why?) and not following through on features is their actual downfall. They pivoted away from their core competency -- content aggregation and easy to use forums. I think they will survive though.
- jeltz 3y ago
  Why shouldn't he have taken it personally? He got 30 days notice from Reddit that they will change the pricing in a way likely to kill his business? With more advance notice he could have investigated ways to adapt his business or tried to lobby politely for a different pricing model. With this short notice he basically was forced to shut down. I do not fault Christian at all for taking it personally, Reddit handled it very poorly.
  - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
    And to add insult to the injury, u/spez was caught red handed lying about the conversation and what took place, and then when that surfaced, doubled down.
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    > With more advance notice he could have investigated ways to adapt his business or tried to lobby politely for a different pricing model. It seems insane on Reddit's part. If someone's referring that much traffic to you, choosing to cut them off entirely instead of negotiating monetization of that channel seems irrational. Then to take an adversarial stance against public outcry as well...Reddit really "hates teh fans." Tech leaders really are starting to out themselves as Nouveau Riche Narcissists instead of the visionaries they pretend to be.
- atraac 3y ago
  > But Christian took this very personally, and he decided to take his toys and go home. I mean wouldn't you? He's built an app that brings him a decent income, he can work on it full time, he based his career on that application. What reaction would you expect out of f.e. youtubers when youtube made it suddenly unable for them to sustain themselves? I mean basing your life/income/business on another business is never a good idea, but this is how a big chunk of the world works. I think he has all the rights to be angry about it.
  - goykasi 3y ago
    Im not sure what I would do. But I do know that if I reacted similarly, by posting all of the private meetings and communications to the public web, where I knew a hornet's nest would be stirred up (his subreddit obviously), I can't expect much of a relationship with reddit to survive after the fact. I can understand how he feels, but he had to know that this would happen. > I think he has all the rights to be angry about it. Yup, I totally agree, and I sympathize with him. Hes in a bad spot, but unfortunately, theres not much he can do anymore unless reddit changes their mind.
    - BoxOfRain 3y ago
      To be fair from what I understand he only posted the private conversation because Huffman was intentionally lying about him to a large audience and he was forced to defend himself. I'm not saying he's handled this amazingly but Reddit absolutely dug their own hole in this case. I don't think even Alastair Campbell could teach them effective crisis management.
      - goykasi 3y ago
        I think this definitely could have been handled much more tactfully on both sides. Im not sure which large audience you are referring to, but Christian references a call with some moderators that seems to have sparked all of this[1]. Prior to the horrendous AMA, spez hadn't posted on reddit for 11 months. Christian was definitely the one to bring it to the public eye. Either way, both sides should share some of the blame. I think this was definitely a case of the little guy not knowing how to navigate such a volatile situation. Some people might even find it pretty unprofessional to joke about reddit buying him out for half-priced at $10mil during an important discussion. Which, btw, would have shutdown the app also, except with a large windfall. How much of that was actually a joke vs testing the waters? [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_w...
- weaksauce 3y ago
  they were going to force him to pay 2million a month starting in a month. what else could he do other than "take his toys and go home" which is a very reductive statement. they could have served ads to the api. they could have had some profit sharing agreement. any routes it could have gone but they chose the most antagonistic one.

by atraac 3y ago

goykasi 3y ago

100% agreement with you here. You have one of the first logical arguments for any push back. > figure out a solution that doesn't involve a single dev spending 20m USD a year just to maintain an app that people like Absolutely, I was hoping that would happen when I saw the first Apollo thread(s) a few weeks ago. But Christian took this very personally, and he decided to take his toys and go home. reddit is not at all innocent here. They definitely had many missteps, but I think both sides did. And now that talks have broken down, reddit has little reason to come back to the table. > Paid API is NOT going to make reddit profitable, especially at this price. It's funny to me that anyone actually even believes that. Hosting costs are not the problem, they have 2000 employees. For a site that can't get any feature fully functioning, has one of the worst ads in the business that noone wants to buy and is almost fully maintained by community for free, it's quite a lot of employees. This is the heart of it for me personally. reddit has much bigger problems than just the API hosting/pricing. Drawing the line in the sand about the API and profitability doesnt make a lot of sense. Having 2000 employees (why?), hosting images and videos (value?), nfts (why?) and not following through on features is their actual downfall. They pivoted away from their core competency -- content aggregation and easy to use forums. I think they will survive though.

jeltz 3y ago
Why shouldn't he have taken it personally? He got 30 days notice from Reddit that they will change the pricing in a way likely to kill his business? With more advance notice he could have investigated ways to adapt his business or tried to lobby politely for a different pricing model. With this short notice he basically was forced to shut down. I do not fault Christian at all for taking it personally, Reddit handled it very poorly.
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  And to add insult to the injury, u/spez was caught red handed lying about the conversation and what took place, and then when that surfaced, doubled down.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  > With more advance notice he could have investigated ways to adapt his business or tried to lobby politely for a different pricing model. It seems insane on Reddit's part. If someone's referring that much traffic to you, choosing to cut them off entirely instead of negotiating monetization of that channel seems irrational. Then to take an adversarial stance against public outcry as well...Reddit really "hates teh fans." Tech leaders really are starting to out themselves as Nouveau Riche Narcissists instead of the visionaries they pretend to be.
atraac 3y ago
> But Christian took this very personally, and he decided to take his toys and go home. I mean wouldn't you? He's built an app that brings him a decent income, he can work on it full time, he based his career on that application. What reaction would you expect out of f.e. youtubers when youtube made it suddenly unable for them to sustain themselves? I mean basing your life/income/business on another business is never a good idea, but this is how a big chunk of the world works. I think he has all the rights to be angry about it.
- goykasi 3y ago
  Im not sure what I would do. But I do know that if I reacted similarly, by posting all of the private meetings and communications to the public web, where I knew a hornet's nest would be stirred up (his subreddit obviously), I can't expect much of a relationship with reddit to survive after the fact. I can understand how he feels, but he had to know that this would happen. > I think he has all the rights to be angry about it. Yup, I totally agree, and I sympathize with him. Hes in a bad spot, but unfortunately, theres not much he can do anymore unless reddit changes their mind.
  - BoxOfRain 3y ago
    To be fair from what I understand he only posted the private conversation because Huffman was intentionally lying about him to a large audience and he was forced to defend himself. I'm not saying he's handled this amazingly but Reddit absolutely dug their own hole in this case. I don't think even Alastair Campbell could teach them effective crisis management.
    - goykasi 3y ago
      I think this definitely could have been handled much more tactfully on both sides. Im not sure which large audience you are referring to, but Christian references a call with some moderators that seems to have sparked all of this[1]. Prior to the horrendous AMA, spez hadn't posted on reddit for 11 months. Christian was definitely the one to bring it to the public eye. Either way, both sides should share some of the blame. I think this was definitely a case of the little guy not knowing how to navigate such a volatile situation. Some people might even find it pretty unprofessional to joke about reddit buying him out for half-priced at $10mil during an important discussion. Which, btw, would have shutdown the app also, except with a large windfall. How much of that was actually a joke vs testing the waters? [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_w...
weaksauce 3y ago
they were going to force him to pay 2million a month starting in a month. what else could he do other than "take his toys and go home" which is a very reductive statement. they could have served ads to the api. they could have had some profit sharing agreement. any routes it could have gone but they chose the most antagonistic one.