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Yet I have to say this: Diablo was more fun. Diablo 2 is pretty great. My only complaints about it surround harder difficulties. Those of us with accessibilit

Yet I have to say this: Diablo was more fun. Diablo 2 is pretty great. My only complaints about it surround harder difficulties. Those of us with accessibility issues (like me with a gimped hand) found hell to be super challenging. Diablo 3 sucked when it launched, however, right now, it is absolutely amazing. Blizzard has absolute gold with the tiered difficulty/rift/season design. Unsure why they didn't improve upon it... Diablo 4 has potential, but many of the great systems developed in 1-3 are gone. What made previous diablo games great: A fixed level/difficulty system Randomly generated levels A way to measure yourself against both yourself and others. Potential for multiple unique build paths for every class. An awesome loot/gear system that eventually makes you feel overpowered until you aren't. Diablo 4 has none of those. Diablo 1-3 have some combination of those.

logicchains 3y ago
Diablo 4 has no sense of progression because enemies level up as you do. In fact they increase in power faster than you, under the assumption you'll be itemising optimally, so if you level up but don't update your items fast enough, you'll find that mobs actually get harder and harder to defeat as you increase in level.
- nemo44x 3y ago
  That’s what great I think. Levels give you skill and paragon points which eventually makes you stronger so you can go to higher tiers where better gear drops. They give you many ways to customize your gear (affix modifications, aspects, gems) with your build and paragon board. That’s what it’s all about.
  - logicchains 3y ago
    > Levels give you skill and paragon points which eventually makes you stronger so you can go to higher tiers where better gear drops Paragon points are only granted around level 50, and skill points stop making much difference around level 20-30 when all the core skills are unlocked. I got so bored of combat I stopped playing at around level 40. Particularly annoying is after getting a few items with good aspects, it's rare to find another item with the same or better aspect, so I have a choice of either sticking with the old item with bad stats and the good aspect (and dying really quickly due to low armor), or picking a new item with better stats but no good aspect. Yes it's possible to extract the aspect from an item and use it on another, but that can only be done once.
    - drexlspivey 3y ago
      Can’t you extract the aspect and put it in a better item?
      - vultour 3y ago
        As he said, once.
    - nemo44x 3y ago
      You can change the stats too. There’s a lot of room for customizing. Also you need to play on nightmare or higher and you’ll see legendary items far more frequently. The game opens up big time then. The story gets you into the endgame and the endgame opens it all up. But different strokes for different folks. :)
- nvarsj 3y ago
  The level scaling is a really bizarre design choice. Every game with this feels bad. There is no sense of progression as your character gets punished for levelling up. Some game designers think it’s a great idea though - hence it’s in D4. I’d love to hear their take.
  - kaoD 3y ago
    I've come to terms with this. Even though it still feels weird I can see why they did it: since the game is not linear at all (I think you can even do the first 3 acts in any order) compared to other Diablo games (didn't play 3) they kinda need to do this so you don't breeze through zones. It also helps when playing with under/over leveled friends since they just use the same system to prevent you from rushing them. Personally I prefer linear narrative and gameplay for Diablo (it's like making linear games is a sin nowadays) but it's probably a wise choice given other design choices? Or at least understandable. It allows them to send you back and forth across regions and still present a challenge. Anyways: I'm liking D4 (I'm surprised to say this of a Blizzard game in 2023) so not the worst design ever.
    - YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
      Level scaling isn't necessary for a nonlinear game. Plenty of games have nonlinear areas and no level scaling because they have relatively flat progression curves. D4 only 'needs' level scaling because it also 'needs' to be Cookie Clicker and Lootbox Simulator with an ARPG wrapped around it, and neither of those systems work with flat progression curves.
      - kaoD 3y ago
        Sorry I don't see what you mean with flat progression curve or how it solves anything here. If I'm level 70 and I go to a level 15 area, how would that solve that I'm just going to cut through the area like butter?
        YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
- nottorp 3y ago
  Can't say D3 had any sense of progression either because you simply did the same rifts with a bigger number attached to them. You got bigger numbers on your gear and then added some numbers to the rift level. Compare that to finally reaching hell Diablo in Diablo 2... or scratch that... finally getting past the blacksmith in act 1 hell :)
  - Sakos 3y ago
    I just can't agree. There is clear progression from first reaching the level cap and clearing T6 and eventually getting good enough gear to finally clear T16. Then continuing to improve your build and gear until you do GR70, 100, 130. Like, I'm never wondering if I'm actually getting stronger, because I know that if I try T6 on a fresh capped character, I'm going to get demolished. If I clear T6 successfully, I know that I've gotten stronger and the stronger I get, the easier T6 will continue to become and the easier it'll be to clear higher difficulties. Nothing ever automatically matches your power level. You choose what difficulty to challenge yourself with. You choose whether you just want something easy (for your power level) to farm, or something difficult to see if you can clear it or how long it takes you. You always know the challenge you're going to get and how strong you are compared to it over time. That's something that level scaling fundamentally breaks and there's no way to avoid that. I don't know how you can equate D3 with D4 in any way and say that D3's system had no progression or was in any way worse than what's in D4. It's just false, a complete misrepresentation of what the game is like.
    - nottorp 3y ago
      So you're happy with bigger numbers? Because the content is absolutely identical from T1 to T2484... and there's absolutely no other way to increase the x in Tx except grinding lower levels to increase some stat on your gear by a small amount. Like my other comments about PoE, I'm talking about what passes for endgame. Where you have all the recommended gear and can do mostly everything. I know that you first need to acquire the epic set that matches what build you want to play and matching non set items. I've done it a couple seasons. But afterwards it's exactly what I described.
- bob1029 3y ago
  This combined with a few other balance issues is what makes hardcore entirely pointless for D4 in my view. The second you find respite, the balancing mechanics will take it all away from you. Anything that moves will be able to kill you in approximately the same amount of time no matter what. D4 HC mode might as well just be a waterboarding simulator with regard to the player's experience.
nemo44x 3y ago
You didn’t need a gimped hand to name hell super challenging! =) Diablo 4 is unbelievable imo. Easily the pickup where Diablo 2 left off. It’s super complex while being simple. Really good game!
bob1029 3y ago
> A fixed level/difficulty system This is the central aspect of fun for me in an ARPG. When I come back through that starting story area at level 40, I expect to absolutely melt the enemies I run into. If I get super fucking lucky on a roll and pick up a legendary (i.e. against the story/balance team's wishes), I should be able to have a goddamn romp through the world for quite a bit. This emergence of potentially-unintended gameplay outcomes in an ARPG results in the fun for me. Maybe there's a way to do the multiplayer-friendly scaling thing that my dopamine loop would enjoy but I haven't seen it yet. Ultimately, it feels like Blizzard tried to solve a cursed problem and walked right into the predictable outcome. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ

logicchains 3y ago

Diablo 4 has no sense of progression because enemies level up as you do. In fact they increase in power faster than you, under the assumption you'll be itemising optimally, so if you level up but don't update your items fast enough, you'll find that mobs actually get harder and harder to defeat as you increase in level.

nemo44x 3y ago
That’s what great I think. Levels give you skill and paragon points which eventually makes you stronger so you can go to higher tiers where better gear drops. They give you many ways to customize your gear (affix modifications, aspects, gems) with your build and paragon board. That’s what it’s all about.
- logicchains 3y ago
  > Levels give you skill and paragon points which eventually makes you stronger so you can go to higher tiers where better gear drops Paragon points are only granted around level 50, and skill points stop making much difference around level 20-30 when all the core skills are unlocked. I got so bored of combat I stopped playing at around level 40. Particularly annoying is after getting a few items with good aspects, it's rare to find another item with the same or better aspect, so I have a choice of either sticking with the old item with bad stats and the good aspect (and dying really quickly due to low armor), or picking a new item with better stats but no good aspect. Yes it's possible to extract the aspect from an item and use it on another, but that can only be done once.
  - drexlspivey 3y ago
    Can’t you extract the aspect and put it in a better item?
    - vultour 3y ago
      As he said, once.
  - nemo44x 3y ago
    You can change the stats too. There’s a lot of room for customizing. Also you need to play on nightmare or higher and you’ll see legendary items far more frequently. The game opens up big time then. The story gets you into the endgame and the endgame opens it all up. But different strokes for different folks. :)
nvarsj 3y ago
The level scaling is a really bizarre design choice. Every game with this feels bad. There is no sense of progression as your character gets punished for levelling up. Some game designers think it’s a great idea though - hence it’s in D4. I’d love to hear their take.
- kaoD 3y ago
  I've come to terms with this. Even though it still feels weird I can see why they did it: since the game is not linear at all (I think you can even do the first 3 acts in any order) compared to other Diablo games (didn't play 3) they kinda need to do this so you don't breeze through zones. It also helps when playing with under/over leveled friends since they just use the same system to prevent you from rushing them. Personally I prefer linear narrative and gameplay for Diablo (it's like making linear games is a sin nowadays) but it's probably a wise choice given other design choices? Or at least understandable. It allows them to send you back and forth across regions and still present a challenge. Anyways: I'm liking D4 (I'm surprised to say this of a Blizzard game in 2023) so not the worst design ever.
  - YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
    Level scaling isn't necessary for a nonlinear game. Plenty of games have nonlinear areas and no level scaling because they have relatively flat progression curves. D4 only 'needs' level scaling because it also 'needs' to be Cookie Clicker and Lootbox Simulator with an ARPG wrapped around it, and neither of those systems work with flat progression curves.
    - kaoD 3y ago
      Sorry I don't see what you mean with flat progression curve or how it solves anything here. If I'm level 70 and I go to a level 15 area, how would that solve that I'm just going to cut through the area like butter?
      - YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
nottorp 3y ago
Can't say D3 had any sense of progression either because you simply did the same rifts with a bigger number attached to them. You got bigger numbers on your gear and then added some numbers to the rift level. Compare that to finally reaching hell Diablo in Diablo 2... or scratch that... finally getting past the blacksmith in act 1 hell :)
- Sakos 3y ago
  I just can't agree. There is clear progression from first reaching the level cap and clearing T6 and eventually getting good enough gear to finally clear T16. Then continuing to improve your build and gear until you do GR70, 100, 130. Like, I'm never wondering if I'm actually getting stronger, because I know that if I try T6 on a fresh capped character, I'm going to get demolished. If I clear T6 successfully, I know that I've gotten stronger and the stronger I get, the easier T6 will continue to become and the easier it'll be to clear higher difficulties. Nothing ever automatically matches your power level. You choose what difficulty to challenge yourself with. You choose whether you just want something easy (for your power level) to farm, or something difficult to see if you can clear it or how long it takes you. You always know the challenge you're going to get and how strong you are compared to it over time. That's something that level scaling fundamentally breaks and there's no way to avoid that. I don't know how you can equate D3 with D4 in any way and say that D3's system had no progression or was in any way worse than what's in D4. It's just false, a complete misrepresentation of what the game is like.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    So you're happy with bigger numbers? Because the content is absolutely identical from T1 to T2484... and there's absolutely no other way to increase the x in Tx except grinding lower levels to increase some stat on your gear by a small amount. Like my other comments about PoE, I'm talking about what passes for endgame. Where you have all the recommended gear and can do mostly everything. I know that you first need to acquire the epic set that matches what build you want to play and matching non set items. I've done it a couple seasons. But afterwards it's exactly what I described.
bob1029 3y ago
This combined with a few other balance issues is what makes hardcore entirely pointless for D4 in my view. The second you find respite, the balancing mechanics will take it all away from you. Anything that moves will be able to kill you in approximately the same amount of time no matter what. D4 HC mode might as well just be a waterboarding simulator with regard to the player's experience.

nemo44x 3y ago

You didn’t need a gimped hand to name hell super challenging! =) Diablo 4 is unbelievable imo. Easily the pickup where Diablo 2 left off. It’s super complex while being simple. Really good game!

bob1029 3y ago

> A fixed level/difficulty system This is the central aspect of fun for me in an ARPG. When I come back through that starting story area at level 40, I expect to absolutely melt the enemies I run into. If I get super fucking lucky on a roll and pick up a legendary (i.e. against the story/balance team's wishes), I should be able to have a goddamn romp through the world for quite a bit. This emergence of potentially-unintended gameplay outcomes in an ARPG results in the fun for me. Maybe there's a way to do the multiplayer-friendly scaling thing that my dopamine loop would enjoy but I haven't seen it yet. Ultimately, it feels like Blizzard tried to solve a cursed problem and walked right into the predictable outcome. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ