4 ms·
While that's certainly a conceivable explanation (the "gay uncle" theory, that the gay members of a family help raise their family's offspring), I've always fou
by bermanoid 15y ago
While that's certainly a conceivable explanation (the "gay uncle" theory, that the gay members of a family help raise their family's offspring), I've always found it really tough to swallow the numbers there. More or less, it would require that each gay uncle increases the fitness of the family [see note 1 below, "family" is very important here, as opposed to "group"!] by enough to make sure that on average, more than 1 additional child is produced per gay uncle. Put another way, with a 10% rate of homosexuality in the population at large, that would mean that at least 10% of our total reproductive success should be due to the helping hand that gays provide for family members' children. That's a lot, probably more than I'd realistically believe.
More likely, the gene that predisposes us to homosexuality (it doesn't cause it, as MZ vs DZ twin studies have shown that homosexuality has well below 50% genetic cause, with a much higher component based on individual environment, both pre and post-natal) is either beneficial in some other way (for instance, a recent study showed that female relatives of homosexuals tend to have more children, which could mean that the heritable bits behind homosexuality actually increase female reproductive rates enough to overwhelm the negatives on the male end), or live close on the chromosome to another gene that's more important, so the gene tends to stick around because of linkage even if it's harmful in some cases.
[1] The "gay uncle" theory relies on the fact that it's family members, i.e. people that are causally likely to share the gene in question, that are helped by the behavior. Google "kin selection" and "group selection" to understand the difference - briefly, kin selection is a totally legitimate effect because a gene helps itself through its prevalence in a family (and specifically, due to the fact that the gene will appear in the offspring that the gene helps make possible, even if it comes from other individuals), but group selection is completely bogus, because Prisoner's Dilemma-style defection is always the right strategy for a gene there.
- jacobr 15y agoYour numbers seem to assume that being homosexual means you will have 0 children, which I doubt always is and has been the case. I also wonder about the 10% figure.
- jacquesm 15y agoThat's not really the right way to look at the figures. The assumption that you'd need to make sure that 1 additional child would need to be produced per gay uncle misses out on the possibility that the increase in offspring comes in later generations. The effect could easily be much more than just one child per gay uncle, depending on how far down the tree of offspring you'd be willing to accept as a direct effect of the presence of a gay uncle higher up in the tree. Also, gay does not mean sterile, but I take it that you assume for simplicity's sake that gays don't have children, or that if they do that they're not subject to this particular explanation since it concentrates on gay people without direct offspring.
- moonchrome 15y ago>both pre and post-natal Wait - if twin studies showed bellow 50% correlation, how can it be pre-natal environment ? But you make a stronger point in the footnote, his initial argument relies on group selection and can be dismissed on those grounds, no need to debate how that relates to homosexuality.
- jancona 15y agoI agree that twin studies couldn't distinguish between genetic and prenatal environmental factors. There is evidence that prenatal environment affects sexual orientation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_male_sexual_orientation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_male_...
- jancona 15y agoOne possibility is that the genetic component to homosexuality is like that for sickle cell trait, fitness-enhancing in the heterozygous case but detrimental in the homozygous.