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Journalist: > I want to stop you for a second there. So you’re saying that Apollo, RIF, Sync, they don’t add value to Reddit? Spez: > Not as much as they take.

by asciii 3y ago

Journalist: > I want to stop you for a second there. So you’re saying that Apollo, RIF, Sync, they don’t add value to Reddit? Spez: > Not as much as they take. No way. Let’s be clear, if 1 developer can make millions through Apollo and do a way better app than the Reddit team, what does that say about Reddit as a whole and their development? It fucking sucks!

Nition 3y ago
I imagine Reddit's response would be, we have to show annoying ads etc to make back the money we spend on infrastructure. Apollo simply uses our work for free, and so can offer an artificially better deal.
- asciii 3y ago
  > our work A lot to unpack here.
  - Nition 3y ago
    Ah, well, I'm sure a real response from Reddit would be much more careful than I was to point to the costs of their infrastructure and away from all the work users do to generate content for free.
    - onionisafruit 3y ago
      I think they are implying that accidentally let slip that you work at reddit. The way I read your comment is you were speculating what somebody from reddit would say.
      - Nition 3y ago
        Maybe I should have used quote marks for everything after the first comma. I don't work at Reddit.
- noahtallen 3y ago
  But it would be very simple for Reddit to require ads to be served in Apollo. They could say that in order to view a feed of posts at scale, you'll have to include ads that are injected into the feed. They could revoke the API token for any clients which don't do that. In fact, there are plenty of ways for Reddit to get their money back. Simply put, the Reddit CEO definitely wants to kill 3rd party apps. He just knows that saying it out loud would have an even bigger backlash. With the current approach, he can pretend to care about 3rd party apps, but do everything to make it financially impossible to run one.
  - shagie 3y ago
    Why not simply charge for the API, and let Apollo figure out a funding model that works for them. It could be subscription, it could be going with a different ad server. Having Reddit need to do audits of clients (where the clients could do things like quietly reduce the number of ads you get if you've tipped $9.99 or more - or not serve ads if your ID is on this special list so that friends don't see the ads or use a developer special trial build) is impractical and would mean that its even more of a call of if the client is in compliance or not. What's more, ads served by the API to a client that isn't controlled by Reddit are less valuable - Reddit would have less information about how much engagement they had with the ad.
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > What's more, ads served by the API to a client that isn't controlled by Reddit are less valuable - Reddit would have less information about how much engagement they had with the ad. That's the key: Reddit and Twitter and Facebook and the like are not selling ads, they're selling you, the user. The users are the product. They're collecting every bit of data about you, building personal profiles. 3rd party apps would never be that intrusive. Delivering eyeballs on ads is not enough.
  - exclusiv 3y ago
    Certainly seems that way. They had been giving access. Then made pricing outrageous and 30 days to comply. A way to kill them off without straight up removing their access or shutting down the API to third parties in full.
- haswell 3y ago
  The thing they seem to completely miss is that the value these apps brought comes from the dedicated/addicted users who generate the only thing of value: content. And needing a 3rd party app to make regular use viable from a mobile device has always been a thing. It’s totally fair for them to say they need to address the ad issue. But to claim these apps bring no value is pretty ridiculous on his part.
  - badwolf 3y ago
    They could also just require a user to have a Reddit Gold membership - which already doesn't show ads anywhere.
senttoschool 3y ago
>Let’s be clear, if 1 developer can make millions through Apollo and do a way better app than the Reddit team, what does that say about Reddit as a whole and their development? Not taking sides on this. I wouldn't say the Apollo app is better. I've used both and the search UX on Apollo is so bad. Furthermore, Apollo does not need to worry about backend at all since Reddit does all the work and gave it to Apollo for free.
- romeoblade 3y ago
  For what it'sp worth and from what I read. Apollo did have a backend that made up for features that the Reddit API either kept as private APIs or refused to implement. He released the code as open source last week. He paid a part-time developer for the implementation and maintenance of code as well. Featured that other APIs offer, like webhooks, pub/sub etc., were requested by various developers over the years but never implemented or took far longer to implement (years). This led to developers designing workarounds to get feature parity with Reddit's app, i.e., notifications. A few of these drastically cut down on total number of API calls by design, which would help them reduce the infrastructure spend they are so concerned with. Ignoring the content consuming (Apollo, RiF, Sync, etc.) third-party app side of the discussion. My biggest takeaway from the entire argument is Reddit now has 2000 employee's but 100 of the requests for improvements for the API, built-in moderator tools, etc., have been mishandled/ignored/years late. Because of that, many people took matters into their own hands and used the API to fill in the gaps in their moderation/admin/creator workflow, and initially, before they conceded on some of those tools, they were affected as well. It wasn't until a couple of days into the uproar (after the price was released, before the blackout) that they reversed course on some of those tools, including conceding the accessibility apps (being 39, and wearing hearing aids for severe loss, I sympathize with the users that are protesting because the web and first party app are lacking in this). I can understand the protest from the above, especially giving the short timeline between prices being released and go live. I'm all for businesses being profitable; I'm all for companies having the right to adjust processes, prices and change terms, etc., but in my opinion, Reddit has severely mismanaged this situation and, in general, been a severely mismanaged business if they are as the CEO says not profitable by now.

by asciii 3y ago

Nition 3y ago

I imagine Reddit's response would be, we have to show annoying ads etc to make back the money we spend on infrastructure. Apollo simply uses our work for free, and so can offer an artificially better deal.

asciii 3y ago
> our work A lot to unpack here.
- Nition 3y ago
  Ah, well, I'm sure a real response from Reddit would be much more careful than I was to point to the costs of their infrastructure and away from all the work users do to generate content for free.
  - onionisafruit 3y ago
    I think they are implying that accidentally let slip that you work at reddit. The way I read your comment is you were speculating what somebody from reddit would say.
    - Nition 3y ago
      Maybe I should have used quote marks for everything after the first comma. I don't work at Reddit.
noahtallen 3y ago
But it would be very simple for Reddit to require ads to be served in Apollo. They could say that in order to view a feed of posts at scale, you'll have to include ads that are injected into the feed. They could revoke the API token for any clients which don't do that. In fact, there are plenty of ways for Reddit to get their money back. Simply put, the Reddit CEO definitely wants to kill 3rd party apps. He just knows that saying it out loud would have an even bigger backlash. With the current approach, he can pretend to care about 3rd party apps, but do everything to make it financially impossible to run one.
- shagie 3y ago
  Why not simply charge for the API, and let Apollo figure out a funding model that works for them. It could be subscription, it could be going with a different ad server. Having Reddit need to do audits of clients (where the clients could do things like quietly reduce the number of ads you get if you've tipped $9.99 or more - or not serve ads if your ID is on this special list so that friends don't see the ads or use a developer special trial build) is impractical and would mean that its even more of a call of if the client is in compliance or not. What's more, ads served by the API to a client that isn't controlled by Reddit are less valuable - Reddit would have less information about how much engagement they had with the ad.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > What's more, ads served by the API to a client that isn't controlled by Reddit are less valuable - Reddit would have less information about how much engagement they had with the ad. That's the key: Reddit and Twitter and Facebook and the like are not selling ads, they're selling you, the user. The users are the product. They're collecting every bit of data about you, building personal profiles. 3rd party apps would never be that intrusive. Delivering eyeballs on ads is not enough.
- exclusiv 3y ago
  Certainly seems that way. They had been giving access. Then made pricing outrageous and 30 days to comply. A way to kill them off without straight up removing their access or shutting down the API to third parties in full.
haswell 3y ago
The thing they seem to completely miss is that the value these apps brought comes from the dedicated/addicted users who generate the only thing of value: content. And needing a 3rd party app to make regular use viable from a mobile device has always been a thing. It’s totally fair for them to say they need to address the ad issue. But to claim these apps bring no value is pretty ridiculous on his part.
- badwolf 3y ago
  They could also just require a user to have a Reddit Gold membership - which already doesn't show ads anywhere.

senttoschool 3y ago

>Let’s be clear, if 1 developer can make millions through Apollo and do a way better app than the Reddit team, what does that say about Reddit as a whole and their development? Not taking sides on this. I wouldn't say the Apollo app is better. I've used both and the search UX on Apollo is so bad. Furthermore, Apollo does not need to worry about backend at all since Reddit does all the work and gave it to Apollo for free.

romeoblade 3y ago
For what it'sp worth and from what I read. Apollo did have a backend that made up for features that the Reddit API either kept as private APIs or refused to implement. He released the code as open source last week. He paid a part-time developer for the implementation and maintenance of code as well. Featured that other APIs offer, like webhooks, pub/sub etc., were requested by various developers over the years but never implemented or took far longer to implement (years). This led to developers designing workarounds to get feature parity with Reddit's app, i.e., notifications. A few of these drastically cut down on total number of API calls by design, which would help them reduce the infrastructure spend they are so concerned with. Ignoring the content consuming (Apollo, RiF, Sync, etc.) third-party app side of the discussion. My biggest takeaway from the entire argument is Reddit now has 2000 employee's but 100 of the requests for improvements for the API, built-in moderator tools, etc., have been mishandled/ignored/years late. Because of that, many people took matters into their own hands and used the API to fill in the gaps in their moderation/admin/creator workflow, and initially, before they conceded on some of those tools, they were affected as well. It wasn't until a couple of days into the uproar (after the price was released, before the blackout) that they reversed course on some of those tools, including conceding the accessibility apps (being 39, and wearing hearing aids for severe loss, I sympathize with the users that are protesting because the web and first party app are lacking in this). I can understand the protest from the above, especially giving the short timeline between prices being released and go live. I'm all for businesses being profitable; I'm all for companies having the right to adjust processes, prices and change terms, etc., but in my opinion, Reddit has severely mismanaged this situation and, in general, been a severely mismanaged business if they are as the CEO says not profitable by now.