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FAA Requires Secondary Flight Deck Barrier
- golemotron 3y agoSurely, three would be better.
- cm2187 3y agoAnd a crocodiles infested moat.
- aryann 3y agoFinal ruling text: https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/ARM-230605-002_-_Supporting_-_2_Secondary-Barriers_FR-Issuance_Preamble.pdf https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/ARM-230605-002_-_Sup...
- thenewwazoo 3y agoMaybe this will finally mean a reduction in security theater on the way to the plane. One can hope, anyway.
- ceejayoz 3y agoProbably not. The armoring of cockpit doors already stopped hijackings. I'm a bit baffled as to the benefit of a second one.
- serf 3y agothe idea is to create an 'air-lock' between openings to prevent a rush towards the cabin opportunistically during an assault when a crew member traverses between the portal. "physical secondary barrier that protects the flightdeck from unauthorized intrusion when the flightdeck door is opened." worst case I suppose you could lock a bad-actor into the in-between until landing? not exactly sure how it'll all be implemented really.
- ghayes 3y agoYeah, it’s funny what happens when the pilots need to access the head. The flight attendants move a cart to block the pathway while the cockpit door is open. I tend to agree with FAA that this is an unnecessary vulnerability if we can easily add a secondary secure door between the cabin and the galley.
- dehrmann 3y agoHow many hijackings has this resulted in, though? The existing solution seems to be good enough.
- ses1984 3y agoShould we for a hijacking to happen, then implement the solution?
- George83728 3y agoShould we wait to see if a tiger lives under your bed before hiring a poacher to get it out?
- rascul 3y agoJust checked, I don't need a poacher.
- ehnto 3y agoThat's not exactly a logical comparison. We know the threat vector exists, we are already taking steps to defend against it (moving food cart in the way). It's just a door, I am pro literal defenses and against security theatre. Maybe if we shore up the cabin we can relax some of the other bullshit theatre going on.
- George83728 3y agoTiger attacks are far more common than plane hijackings, thousands of people are attacked by tigers every year. Listen, I know a guy.. he works for free if you let him keep the carcass. You don't want to take risks with tigers.
- tomschlick 3y agoPassengers already know to not comply with hijackers. Since 9/11 everyone who has attempted something has gotten a beating and then restrained by passengers until an emergency landing could occur. I can't see an extra door helping much knowing that.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dv_dt 3y agoIn light in this imho extra cockpit doors makes rogue pilots a much higher risk.
- rascul 3y ago> Since 9/11 everyone who has attempted something has gotten a beating and then restrained by passengers until an emergency landing could occur. How many is everyone?
- runlevel1 3y agoI don't have exact numbers, but a Google Image search for 'airline passenger duct taped' returns quite a few results: https://www.google.com/search?q=airline+passenger+duct+taped&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=airline+passenger+duct+taped...
- Brian_K_White 3y agoall of them
- Simulacra 3y agoDo you know how they have that curtain on some airplanes to separate you from first class? It's kind of like that. It's probably the flight attendants want something they can pull across to keep you from coming up and bothering them.
- refurb 3y agoBlock off access from the lavatory forward so at no point in time is there an open door to the cockpit. Right now, when pilots use the toilet, the cockpit door is wide open.
- lettergram 3y agoIndeed, I’m trying to figure out what is the reasoning here? Is it just regulation for regulation sake or what?
- adrr 3y agoHas it? I've only read news stories about passengers jumping anyone that tries any thing.
- ceejayoz 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 provides a grim example of how hard it is to get through these newer doors. If they're locked, no one's getting in if the pilot doesn't want them to.
- George83728 3y agoNot a chance. This is more security theater, meant to remind people to be afraid.
- Simulacra 3y agoIt's such a ridiculous theater. If a terrorist really wanted to bring down an airplane, nothing the TSA or the airports are currently doing will stop them. There's way too many holes.
- tyingq 3y agoThe passengers, however, will stop them. It only used to work because the passengers thought it was a hijacking they could maybe survive. Once that hope was gone, it stopped working. Both on 9/11, and several times afterwards.
- Vecr 3y agoIf you want to bring down the airplane in general, there are multiple things you can do, but if you want to bring it down in a specific location, you either have to somehow hack the control systems, or break into the cockpit. For example if you want to crash the airplane into a skyscraper.
- George83728 3y agoThat isn't a thing that happens anymore, because passengers don't tolerate anybody making trouble. This double-doors stuff is alarmist theater for a fabricated threat.
- grepfru_it 3y ago> passengers don't tolerate anybody making trouble Examples of this? The shoe bomber is one, but the shoe bomber was solo. I don't know what a situation would look like in a 9/11 attack where you have 4-5 attackers. Esp in a widebody jet
- scruffybear 3y agoOn current domestic flights the flight door hinges are 2 inches from bathroom hinges. So if there's now the need for two doors (an airlock) will they be lengthening the plane 3 feet to allow for this?
- dag11 3y agoThe secondary barrier would have to be between the cabin and the lavatory, so that the pilot can go to from the cockpit to the lavatory on their side of the barrier. So I imagine that whenever the pilot is not about to or actively using the lavatory that barrier would be left open so that passengers can access it. Some (all?) U.S. domestic airlines currently have this exact system in place, except with a flight attendant standing guard between the first row of seats and the galley/lavatory/cockpit, starting just before the pilot opens the cockpit door. I have no idea if this has been a regulation thing or just a thing I notice the airlines I fly do, but this physical barrier would probably follow the same usage pattern as the current meat-based barrier.
- downvotetruth 3y agoCurtain would be simpler to hide if the door is open. Door movement noise could be faked/randomized with a speaker.
- dag11 3y ago> noise could be faked/randomized with a speaker That already sounds more complex than a door IMO
- tgsovlerkhgsel 3y agoMy guess is that some kind of retractable grate will be installed between the bathroom and the passenger cabin.
- bunabhucan 3y agoDoes it need to be 3 foot multiplied by the width of the plane? Why not a box or cage a bit smaller than a toilet? Hell you could make a retractable person sized cage inside or outside the cockpit.
- malablaster 3y agoIt would be cheaper to install a two way drawer on the existing security barrier that would allow flight attendants to pass food and beverage to the cockpit and allow pilots to pass their faeces out.
- refurb 3y agoThey could pee in bottles and we'd have pilot bombs instead of trucker bombs. But you can't use the word bombs on airplanes so they'd need to call them something else.
- willcipriano 3y agohttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D0u6Lb6RCz4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D0u6Lb6RCz4
- koolba 3y agoIs this supposed to be an actual barrier to handle when the pilot goes to the bathroom? The current protocol has the flight attendant block off the aisle with the food cart to block someone from rushing the flight deck. Or at least slow them down enough for the co-pilot to lock the door.
- ehnto 3y agoThat does sound a little janky to be honest, if they think it should be protected may as well do it properly.
- rx_tx 3y agoPrevious discussion (not a lot of activity on it) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36334796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36334796
- sammy2255 3y agoBasically they want an air lock? Someone at the FAA has been playing too much Rust and getting door camped
- elromulous 3y agoI came here to say this. An airlock is exactly what they need. Although not necessarily literally an airlock in a sense that it needn't be airtight, but just that you can't open both doors simultaneously.
- jwestbury 3y agoA vestibule. This is common practice in the SCIFs that are used to protect classified data -- makes it harder to gain access, also makes it harder to see in from outside. Makes sense to have it on planes for similar reasons.
- thakoppno 3y agoIt seems to me a second door should render the need of securing the primary door less necessary. That Germanwings flight haunts me more than any other in-flight scenario. So keep the new door secured like the existing primary. Make the primary unlockable with a key.
- George83728 3y agoWe should take away their shoelaces, just in case the pilot tries to garrote his copilot. Velcro shoes work fine, and a minor fashion offense is a small price to pay to prevent this scenario.