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Amazon confirms it locked Microsoft engineer out his Echo gear over false claim

56 points by LinuxBender 3y ago

gigel82 3y ago
Brandon Jackson, a Microsoft site reliability engineer, says an errant report of racist abuse led to the suspension of his Amazon account... Most of his smart home gear, he said, is self-hosted locally, via Apple HomeKit. All we're missing is some Facebook/Google stuff and we've hit a FAANG bingo :)
- jackdawipper 3y ago
  "Apple" is also an issue, you often hand everything over to them as part of their "privacy, but not moral privacy" positioning.
- tinus_hn 3y ago
  Of course, Microsoft would never be caught doing such a thing!
- scrum-treats 3y ago
  Facebook already added pixels to every website and gathered all your data without your express consent. Then, requires a government issued ID + current picture to delete any account. In contrast to Amazon, Facebook doesn't want your account to be deleted; it's actively compiling data to form a "persona" of you. I'd argue Google falls in the same category as Facebook. You have to try very hard to get a suspension from Google. A situation like the one described in the article is not enough evidence for Facebook, Google, or Apple to suspend an account.
ajross 3y ago
This is sort of a perfect storm of idiocy, frankly. What happened was that the Amazon delivery employee complained about the owner making racist remarks over the smart doorbell[1] during the delivery. This has the result, I guess, of terminating/locking/suspending/whatever the owner's Amazon account. Which... I guess is not really all that surprising? Abusive behavior online gets treated the same way. There's an argument to be made about appeals and justice, I guess. But the mechanisms here seem to basically be working as intended. It's just another false positive. They happened with pen and paper businesses in the 1960's too. [1] Denied by the homeowner, obviously. The story seems to check out, but at the same time it's never a great idea to believe one-sided accounts like this blindly. "I was harmed by Big Tech Run Amok" is click bait in this particular community. Always be extra careful to confirm enraging stories that confirm your priors!
- Terretta 3y ago
  > Denied by the homeowner, obviously. The story seems to check out, but at the same time it's never a great idea to believe one-sided accounts like this blindly. If only the other side of the story was available in the original article. Much easier to figure out who to blame if Amazon went on the record. For instance, if an Amazon spokesperson said, "In this case, we learned through our investigation that the customer did not act inappropriately, and we’re working directly with the customer to resolve their concerns while also looking at ways to prevent a similar situation from happening again." That would be less one sided.
krisoft 3y ago
There is a lot of focus on the smart home features in this story but I believe it is a red herring. I’m much more concerned how easy it is for amazon to stop trading with someone. A single driver misheard a few words and that is enough to ban you? I live in a flat and whenever I hear the post flap make the characteristic noise of something dropped through it I shout “thank you” to whoever just delivered something to me. What if a delivery driver mishears that one day? I don’t have recording devices on my door, how would I clear my name? What if a delivery driver has a genuienly bad experience somewhere and as they report it they misclick or misremember where it happened and associate my adress with it? What if someone on the street or in the building hassles the delivery driver and they mistakenly associate their trouble with me? (Because for any reason they think they were interacting with me.) Now of course i would survive without Amazon, but it would suck greatly. It is just crazy how easily the whole story could have ended as “amazon banned me. I called them. They told me I am a racist, I don’t think I am. They demanded evidence but there was nothing I could send them. My account remains banned. I don’t understand how it happened.” And how many times might have the above already happened before they did it with someone who had enough online clout to report the situation widely?
- jackdawipper 3y ago
  if anything they are likely claiming it was the driver, but was more likely the algos listening in to his every conversation through his devices in the home.
  - accrual 3y ago
    Listening =/= recording. Although entirely plausible, I've yet to see home assistants implicated in surreptitious recording.
    - scrum-treats 3y ago
      Oh? I invite you to take a job at Amazon, where you will discover more than enough evidence to remove any doubt. Cameras and mic channels can be opened at-will, across all devices (e.g., TVs, laptops, phones, Alexa devices). How? Set up an Echo device. Download the Alexa/Video/Shopping App. Connect your devices via Wifi/Bluetooth. That's it.
jackdawipper 3y ago
I am sure this is why they want us all to buy EVs much more than the reality of "climate". It will lead to complete control of mass population; you can shut down a persons home and vehicle remotely and they can't do much about it.
- aintgonnatakeit 3y ago
  And how long have you been experiencing these paranoid episodes? Who is “they” ?
  - jackdawipper 3y ago
    governments make mint on "climate change" politics. is they. "paranoia" is claiming the climate is doomed when its been changing since the dawn of earth and curiously those same prophets of this doom, own and purchase ocean side property. so who is paranoid, the denier or the, "we are all doomed if you dont buy batteries made from congo child mines" virtual-signalling mob?
- LeafItAlone 3y ago
  What does that have to do with EVs? It can already happened with ICE vehicles.
arp242 3y ago
Related story from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36296250 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36296250
adultSwim 3y ago
Honestly this sounds like a good system overall. Many Ring owners are racist towards delivery drivers. Shutting off their accounts ie firing them as customers is appropriate. Harassment should not be tolerated. A more common situation than the case reports is home owners getting delivery drivers fired.
PeterStuer 3y ago
Is it smart to have a smart home for wich you are not the root?
- scrum-treats 3y ago
  Not ever.

56 points by LinuxBender 3y ago

Brandon Jackson, a Microsoft site reliability engineer, says an errant report of racist abuse led to the suspension of his Amazon account... Most of his smart home gear, he said, is self-hosted locally, via Apple HomeKit. All we're missing is some Facebook/Google stuff and we've hit a FAANG bingo :)

jackdawipper 3y ago
"Apple" is also an issue, you often hand everything over to them as part of their "privacy, but not moral privacy" positioning.
tinus_hn 3y ago
Of course, Microsoft would never be caught doing such a thing!
scrum-treats 3y ago
Facebook already added pixels to every website and gathered all your data without your express consent. Then, requires a government issued ID + current picture to delete any account. In contrast to Amazon, Facebook doesn't want your account to be deleted; it's actively compiling data to form a "persona" of you. I'd argue Google falls in the same category as Facebook. You have to try very hard to get a suspension from Google. A situation like the one described in the article is not enough evidence for Facebook, Google, or Apple to suspend an account.

ajross 3y ago

This is sort of a perfect storm of idiocy, frankly. What happened was that the Amazon delivery employee complained about the owner making racist remarks over the smart doorbell[1] during the delivery. This has the result, I guess, of terminating/locking/suspending/whatever the owner's Amazon account. Which... I guess is not really all that surprising? Abusive behavior online gets treated the same way. There's an argument to be made about appeals and justice, I guess. But the mechanisms here seem to basically be working as intended. It's just another false positive. They happened with pen and paper businesses in the 1960's too. [1] Denied by the homeowner, obviously. The story seems to check out, but at the same time it's never a great idea to believe one-sided accounts like this blindly. "I was harmed by Big Tech Run Amok" is click bait in this particular community. Always be extra careful to confirm enraging stories that confirm your priors!

Terretta 3y ago
> Denied by the homeowner, obviously. The story seems to check out, but at the same time it's never a great idea to believe one-sided accounts like this blindly. If only the other side of the story was available in the original article. Much easier to figure out who to blame if Amazon went on the record. For instance, if an Amazon spokesperson said, "In this case, we learned through our investigation that the customer did not act inappropriately, and we’re working directly with the customer to resolve their concerns while also looking at ways to prevent a similar situation from happening again." That would be less one sided.

krisoft 3y ago

There is a lot of focus on the smart home features in this story but I believe it is a red herring. I’m much more concerned how easy it is for amazon to stop trading with someone. A single driver misheard a few words and that is enough to ban you? I live in a flat and whenever I hear the post flap make the characteristic noise of something dropped through it I shout “thank you” to whoever just delivered something to me. What if a delivery driver mishears that one day? I don’t have recording devices on my door, how would I clear my name? What if a delivery driver has a genuienly bad experience somewhere and as they report it they misclick or misremember where it happened and associate my adress with it? What if someone on the street or in the building hassles the delivery driver and they mistakenly associate their trouble with me? (Because for any reason they think they were interacting with me.) Now of course i would survive without Amazon, but it would suck greatly. It is just crazy how easily the whole story could have ended as “amazon banned me. I called them. They told me I am a racist, I don’t think I am. They demanded evidence but there was nothing I could send them. My account remains banned. I don’t understand how it happened.” And how many times might have the above already happened before they did it with someone who had enough online clout to report the situation widely?

jackdawipper 3y ago
if anything they are likely claiming it was the driver, but was more likely the algos listening in to his every conversation through his devices in the home.
- accrual 3y ago
  Listening =/= recording. Although entirely plausible, I've yet to see home assistants implicated in surreptitious recording.
  - scrum-treats 3y ago
    Oh? I invite you to take a job at Amazon, where you will discover more than enough evidence to remove any doubt. Cameras and mic channels can be opened at-will, across all devices (e.g., TVs, laptops, phones, Alexa devices). How? Set up an Echo device. Download the Alexa/Video/Shopping App. Connect your devices via Wifi/Bluetooth. That's it.

jackdawipper 3y ago

I am sure this is why they want us all to buy EVs much more than the reality of "climate". It will lead to complete control of mass population; you can shut down a persons home and vehicle remotely and they can't do much about it.

aintgonnatakeit 3y ago
And how long have you been experiencing these paranoid episodes? Who is “they” ?
- jackdawipper 3y ago
  governments make mint on "climate change" politics. is they. "paranoia" is claiming the climate is doomed when its been changing since the dawn of earth and curiously those same prophets of this doom, own and purchase ocean side property. so who is paranoid, the denier or the, "we are all doomed if you dont buy batteries made from congo child mines" virtual-signalling mob?
LeafItAlone 3y ago
What does that have to do with EVs? It can already happened with ICE vehicles.

arp242 3y ago

Related story from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36296250 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36296250

adultSwim 3y ago

Honestly this sounds like a good system overall. Many Ring owners are racist towards delivery drivers. Shutting off their accounts ie firing them as customers is appropriate. Harassment should not be tolerated. A more common situation than the case reports is home owners getting delivery drivers fired.

PeterStuer 3y ago

Is it smart to have a smart home for wich you are not the root?

scrum-treats 3y ago
Not ever.